@mopaji said:

When he was head coach in Green Bay, the Packers drafted Jay Barker (Round 5, 1995), Kyle Wachholtz (Round 7, 1996), Ronnie McAda (Round 7, 1997). They also drafted Ty Detmer (Round 9, 1992), Mark Brunell (Round 5, 1993), Matt Hasselbeck (Round 6, 1998). These were in the Ron Wolf days.

When Holmgren was head coach at Seattle, quarterbacks drafted by the Seahawks included Brock Huard (Round 3, 1999), Josh Booty (Round 6, 2001), Jeff Kelly (Round 7, 2002), Seneca Wallace (Round 4, 2003) and David Greene (Round 3, 2005). All five were “his guys.”

I like Wallace. More than most here. Holgren ascribed to the Ron Wolf theory of take a flyer on a guy every year and see if you catch lightning in a bottle. Third round picks on Huard and Greene were Frye-esque. And then he traded for Charlie Frye in the flesh.

@ballpeen said:

Add it up my man.

Wallace... hand picked and groomed by Holmgren when at Seattle.....check

Dabol being tutored by Holmgrens right hand man on the WCO.....check

Now we pick up Holmgrens hand picked guy......check

Add in the fact Holmgren said "some fun things" are about to happen....check

I don't know you all that well, but well enough IMO to know you aren't some dumb ass dolt......follow the bouncing ball...Wallace is the guy.

Holmgren feels the guy is ready to take a big step....Wallace isn't backing up anything.

Ballpeen, I don't disagree with your post but I think we're taking a QB in the third round to groom. Wallace may start here but Holmgren needs some insurance.

http://theassociation.blogs.com/nfl/images...79283king_1.jpg

WSS

@mopaji said:

Which good QB's did he acutally pick overrulling the consensus of the draft team....................Please say it

@riffer-x said:

I think you are wishing.

Add it up my man.

Wallace... hand picked and groomed by Holmgren when at Seattle.....check

Dabol being tutored by Holmgrens right hand man on the WCO.....check

Now we pick up Holmgrens hand picked guy......check

Add in the fact Holmgren said "some fun things" are about to happen....check

I don't know you all that well, but well enough IMO to know you aren't some dumb ass dolt......follow the bouncing ball...Wallace is the guy.

Holmgren feels the guy is ready to take a big step....Wallace isn't backing up anything.

Zombo said:

I know you set up your first post by admitting the bias, etc ... but c'mon! Do you think there is any other team's message board clamoring for Troy Freaking Smith? It just doesn't matter that he's from Cleveland or Ohio St. I rooted for Frye, I root for Quinn, it's a nice little angle for the Mary Kays of the world to write articles about how they are local products ... but it just doesn't matter. San Francisco didn't care that Montana was a Pittsburgh boy, Green Bay didn't care that Bret Favre was from the bible belt, Indy doesn't give a rat's ass that Peyton is from New Orleans, and Pittsburgh is totally OK that Rapelsburger is from Ohio. Just win. No one cares where you are from.

Smith is a short, 5th round QB, with 2 career starts and very little interest in his abilities outside of Baltimore or your neighborhood. Quinn, is taller, a first-rounder, more experienced, and generally considered more upside. What is the value in bringing in this guy? If you go with Quinn you get a veteran starter and a draft pick to back him up. If you don't go with Quinn you find a veteran starter and draft your QB of the future, you don't chase a 5th round midget hoping to bank your future on him.

And it's not because I'm a Penn St. fan or a Notre Dame fan ... I hated Courtney Brown, I never clamored for Kerry Collins, I've been as hard on Quinn as anybody ... I want winners in Brown & Orange. Don't care where they are from. I don't see Troy Smith as a future NFL star and I doubt anyone who's anyone in the league sees it either. Let him go ... put the Troymont down. Step away from the Troymont.

Zombo

Troy Smith is about 1/2 inch shorter than Steve McNair was. Similar build. Taller than Drew Brees. Would dwarf Sipe or Theisman. Yeah, I get the NFL prototype is a 6'6 guy, but you have to be a freakin giraffe to really see over the offense line. The reason that you don't see many 5'10 to 6'1 QBs in the NFL is at least partially because they don't get the same chances. It's a fact. They aren't drafted high and the teams are not willing to invest the time in them. It's self-fulfilling.

Smith was undefeated as a collegiate over Michigan. But only after he succeeded in a short window to beat out the taller, more prototypical Justin Zwick. He is undefeated as an NFL QB over the Steelers. He was flat out the better QB when he and Quinn met head to head. 400+ yards total offense, 340+ passing. He's an accurate passer with better than average mobility. I'd like to see him stand back to back with Montana or Young. Taller than Garcia, no doubt. All thrived in the San Fransisco version of the WCO that Holmgren grew up in.

Smith's a winner. I'd take him over Tim Hiller or Zach what's his name or John Skelton (a guy with very average numbers at Fordham who pro teams are drooling over because of his prototype size) or whatever QB might be available in the fifth round that will turn out to be a wasted pick.

Wallace is an interesting pick up. Incredible athlete. Don't forget that "The Show" was so intrigued with him as a receiver that he brought in Frye hoping that he could fill the bill of backup to free Wallace. I think he might be a placeholder for a QB they draft. They might yet be willing to bring in an experienced starting QB to make the transition. Wallace provides insurance against desperation, a credible back up until a rook is ready to back up and a potentially productive slot receiver if that's the scenario that works out quickly.

As for the rook, I'll take McCoy with our 3rd round pick . . . the knock on him will be that he's short. Like Smith, though, he's a winner. Something tells me he'd have fewer initial critics. I also might take a flyer on Hall. From where they'll be drafted, though I don't much care for this QB class.

Imagine Troy sitting on the bench while Quinn Started. Or Vise Versa.

BTW, I'd be just as cool with bringing back Frye. He's won more than either of those two, hasn't he?

And in draft news, Buckeyes Jake Ballard and Kurt Koleman want to play for hometown franchises too.

Zombo's ripped off Rolling Stone Riff may be most apropo here.

If we are are going to use wallace to train BQ or a draft pick on how to function in holmgrens offense it was a smart move..

But if we are going to run mangini/dabolls offense it was stupid..

@thaak said:

It's obvious Wallace is viewed as a backup period. If that's the case, they may be looking at making a real impact yet. If not, it would have been neck and neck for Queen and Troymont to start and Holmgren didn't want another QB controversy.

Zombo said:

You can't always get what you want.

But if you try sometimes you might find, you get what you need.

We need a Better QB, not a local QB.

Zombo

Zombo, when you look at our history of drafting QB's, and our history of 5th round picks (we got at least 4 this year, and if the one dufus is right, we will end up having a 5th as a compensatory pick), what makes you think anyone we bring in at one of those spots would not be just as valuable as Smith might be? Even if he is only our 2nd string QB, I say spending a 5th on him to see what he has is worth it.

Zombo said:

That's absolutely untrue. First of all, I like the Buckeyes. But even if was from a college program I don't like ... say Michigan or USC, I wouldn't hold the fact that he went to school there against him, I'd hold the fact that he is a 6'0 5th rounder who has done nothing to change my perceptions of him against him.

Great college QB. Like the Buckeyes. Love Cleveland. ... don't undestand why anybody would be hot about him as an NFL starter.

The two most over-pimped footbal players on this board are Troy Smith and James Davis. I hope Davis turns into a steal, but I'm not about to say we are all a-ok at RB because we have this injured 6th round pick on the roster, and I'm not about to say we should go out and spend a draft pick on Troy Smith when he clearly is less of a prospect than a guy we already have playing the position.

I don't see how someone would like Smith more than Quinn. or more than a prospect like McCoy, Bradford or Clausen. Or more than a proven NFL guy like Bulger, Delhomme or Mcnabb. I just don't see how he makes us better or more secure at the most important position on the field.

Zombo

My thinking on this is far more simple: The Browns have only 2 QBs on their roster. They probably should go into training camp with at least 4. If Smith could be even third string for the Browns, and it costs us only a 5th rounder, that is fine. I don't know that he would be any worse than someone we could draft to be our 3rd string QB in the 5th round or below.

He is still a baby career wise as an NFL QB. If they got Smith plus got one of those other veteran QBs that are sitting on the scrap heap, that would be fine with me. My thinking is that BQ is our starter, and anything else is just insurance, Smith included.

Zombo said:

I know you set up your first post by admitting the bias, etc ... but c'mon! Do you think there is any other team's message board clamoring for Troy Freaking Smith? It just doesn't matter that he's from Cleveland or Ohio St. I rooted for Frye, I root for Quinn, it's a nice little angle for the Mary Kays of the world to write articles about how they are local products ... but it just doesn't matter. San Francisco didn't care that Montana was a Pittsburgh boy, Green Bay didn't care that Bret Favre was from the bible belt, Indy doesn't give a rat's ass that Peyton is from New Orleans, and Pittsburgh is totally OK that Rapelsburger is from Ohio. Just win. No one cares where you are from.

Smith is a short, 5th round QB, with 2 career starts and very little interest in his abilities outside of Baltimore or your neighborhood. Quinn, is taller, a first-rounder, more experienced, and generally considered more upside. What is the value in bringing in this guy? If you go with Quinn you get a veteran starter and a draft pick to back him up. If you don't go with Quinn you find a veteran starter and draft your QB of the future, you don't chase a 5th round midget hoping to bank your future on him.

And it's not because I'm a Penn St. fan or a Notre Dame fan ... I hated Courtney Brown, I never clamored for Kerry Collins, I've been as hard on Quinn as anybody ... I want winners in Brown & Orange. Don't care where they are from. I don't see Troy Smith as a future NFL star and I doubt anyone who's anyone in the league sees it either. Let him go ... put the Troymont down. Step away from the Troymont.

Zombo

Give me some Troymont now goddammit.

Kid has game Zombo he was the best QB in Buckeye history and won the Heisman as a dual threat QB. You're not giving him the respect he's due cuz he's a Buckeye. You said for yourself how great Flacco Seagulls is so how in the hell does anybody know about Smith yet being stuck behind the franchise guy? Seriously, Smith could be a breakout guy and you don't know any better than anyone else if he is or not.

Pike or LeFevour and groom them thr correct way

@miktoxic said:

that being said he's gotta be better than what we got now.

The height thing is an issue, don't get me wrong. But there are people (not necessarily you) saying that we shouldn't get Troy Smith, and the only reason they really provide is that he's too short. I agree, players are getting bigger and Troy Smith is not your prototypical QB size. Sometimes good QB's aren't prototypes, though. Flutie and Brees were and are both smaller sized individuals, but were and are both very good quarterbacks. I believe we have the room to take a chance on Smith as well as also draft a "prototypical size" QB (Pike, Tebow).

And you're right, he's got to be just as good or better than Anderquinn.

@hoorta said:

The only thing that concerns me about Smith is #3. My rationale being if Smith had shown something, he would have been tendered higher, like second round. $1.8 million isn't that huge a contract for a quality backup qb.

Well, according to multiple sources, Smith was slated to become the starter before his tonsilitis and the emergence of Joe Flacco. If you ask me, that's just bad timing. And it would be pretty hard for a lot of QB's in the league to start over Joe Flacco now. I believe he's got the talent, he's just been a victim of circumstance. And he won't be expensive to bring in. And he's already stated he wants to be here. It seems like the perfect situation for him and for us, because if he doesn't work out, there's no cap that takes a hit. Tenders work funny in the NFL. Sometimes teams will tender a player lower just to be sure they can get a deal for him. If he was tendered at a second round pick, nobody would have bit on that.

@hoorta said:

Sometimes tender guys in such a way that they can ensure someone will take him. He's unhappy, they have a franchise QB, we have 5 fifth rd picks, why not?

@hoorta said:

He showed enough there to be the starter until he got sick as hell. Over first round pick Flacco BTW.

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:

People are hating on Troy Smith for four reasons, mainly:

1. He's short.

2. He's Joe Flacco's backup.

3. He hasn't shown anything.

4. He never won a National Championship.

I'm not saying this guy is amazing, but it's kind of stupid not to give him a chance when he can be had for so little. Plus, if our right side of the offensive line doesn't improve, his ability to scramble will be a needed asset.

The only thing that concerns me about Smith is #3. My rationale being if Smith had shown something, he would have been tendered higher, like second round. $1.8 million isn't that huge a contract for a quality backup qb.

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:

People are hating on Troy Smith for four reasons, mainly:

1. He's short.

2. He's Joe Flacco's backup.

3. He hasn't shown anything.

4. He never won a National Championship.

Well, his height won't change. So shit or get off the pot. He obviously found ways to adapt to his "average" height, and he's not a midget. This is being played out.

Aaron Rodgers was Brett Favre's backup in Green Bay. He's not worth shit, either, is he? Tom Brady was Drew Bledsoe's beckup for a while, as well. Just saying.

He hasn't shown anything because he hasn't had a chance. That's it. He hasn't shown abilty, nor has he shown inability.

Other notable QB's to never win a National Championship: Brett Favre, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady (he was a backup, didn't play), Otto Graham, Dan Marino, Terry Bradshaw, Johnny Unitas, and Fran Tarkenton.

(I am, in no way, comparing the skill sets of Troy Smith to those of the NFL greats. I am simply showing that the National Championship reasoning is baloney. Or bologna. However you want to spell it.)

I'm not saying this guy is amazing, but it's kind of stupid not to give him a chance when he can be had for so little. Plus, if our right side of the offensive line doesn't improve, his ability to scramble will be a needed asset.

hey, i'm not hating on anyone. and yes, the height thing does get played ou, but to say i'm over dramatizing it is wrong. brees is the only guy i know of in recent history that's been successful in the nfl with the height 'issue'. i'm no gm but if you asked any of them i'm sure they'd say the prototypical qb of now and into the future is the manning/ryan/rivers/cutler/flacco etc. etc. size. that's all.

that being said he's gotta be better than what we got now.

@miktoxic said:

He's nowhere near short enough to not be able to see over the offensive linemen. That's just dramaticizing it.

People are hating on Troy Smith for four reasons, mainly:

1. He's short.

2. He's Joe Flacco's backup.

3. He hasn't shown anything.

4. He never won a National Championship.

Well, his height won't change. So shit or get off the pot. He obviously found ways to adapt to his "average" height, and he's not a midget. This is being played out.

Aaron Rodgers was Brett Favre's backup in Green Bay. He's not worth shit, either, is he? Tom Brady was Drew Bledsoe's beckup for a while, as well. Just saying.

He hasn't shown anything because he hasn't had a chance. That's it. He hasn't shown abilty, nor has he shown inability.

Other notable QB's to never win a National Championship: Brett Favre, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady (he was a backup, didn't play), Otto Graham, Dan Marino, Terry Bradshaw, Johnny Unitas, and Fran Tarkenton.

(I am, in no way, comparing the skill sets of Troy Smith to those of the NFL greats. I am simply showing that the National Championship reasoning is baloney. Or bologna. However you want to spell it.)

I'm not saying this guy is amazing, but it's kind of stupid not to give him a chance when he can be had for so little. Plus, if our right side of the offensive line doesn't improve, his ability to scramble will be a needed asset.

@brownshirt said:

yup just look how athletic peyton manning and tom brady are

or even Chad Henne and Eli Manning or Phillip Rivers or Aaron Rodgers

i could go on and on and on

athletisim has almost nothing to do with being a good starting NFL QB

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:

Look at it this way:

A Heisman trophy winner with NFL experience and first round talent that can be had in the 5th round. From a pure drafting point of view, it's a no brainer. Especially if you still have 3 other 5th round picks to use.

I don't see what the big deal is. I doubt, if we did bring him in, that we would have a quarterback controversy on our hands. The best QB would start- if that's Quinn, then it's Quinn. If that's Troy, then it's Troy. It's not as hard as people are making it out to be.

That's what I don't get either. Everyone is saying he sucks or is not worth the 5th round pick.

Both our current QB's suck and no matter who we bring in, I have a feeling we're drafting a QB at some point in the upcoming draft anyway.

Why not give the guy a shot?