@the-gipper said:

"Separation of church and state" is actually a term used by Thomas Jefferson. It is really a shorthand way to say what the First Amendment says. If you want to utilize semantics you can deny the effect of any term used in any legal document.

In this respect you may also deny the effect of any of the Ten Commandments.

E.g. To the Jews...who wrote the Ten Commandments, ALL Christians violate the First Commandment that says thou shalt have no false gods. To them, Jesus is a false god.

This would, indeed, be absolutely correct if you wanted to go by a strict construction and interpretation of the terms of the document. I venture to say you probably disagree with that interpetation. Fair to say?

You might argue that the First Commandment doesn't mean what it says in that regard, so it would not be right to interpret it so strictly. Yet, at the same time, you would not allow any variance, any interpretation of the First Amendment.

Ergo, then you would have to accept the following equation:

No use of term "separation of church and state"= Jesus is a false god.

You want to make your bed? You gotta lay in it.

i wish that i could thank you 10,000 times for this post.

american was not founded on religious ideals. put down "america's providential history" and read a real american history book.

@miktoxic said:

It's fine that it pushes your buttons but to resort to name calling and racial attacks makes you seem like a kid. You should probably take your own advice and lighten up some. Can we lock this thread for being so far off topic it's not even funny? Or can we get it back on topic?

@nobuo said:

hey, this is one of those topics that push my buttons. i can talk to anyone about anything.....except if they have a predisposition and a closed mind. i.e.: you. and having a sense of humor and wit when responding to ?'s on a forum like this should not be dismissed as childish or moronic. i take it from your responses that you are chirstian and blah, blah, blah. fine, but..........why don't you people lighten up? how will it feel, squeezing the life out of someone else's beliefs on your deathbed and then finding out at the last second that THEY were right? makes you think, right? or in your case, maybe not.

@nobuo said:

You make too many assumptions about what our government was established on. Assumptions based on falsities propogated by the religious right. America was founded by religious men who were so smart as to know that government and religion should not be mixed. They were smart enough to know that it was best for BOTH the government and the religious groups of the nation.

"Separation of church and state" is actually a term used by Thomas Jefferson. It is really a shorthand way to say what the First Amendment says. If you want to utilize semantics you can deny the effect of any term used in any legal document.

In this respect you may also deny the effect of any of the Ten Commandments.

E.g. To the Jews...who wrote the Ten Commandments, ALL Christians violate the First Commandment that says thou shalt have no false gods. To them, Jesus is a false god.

This would, indeed, be absolutely correct if you wanted to go by a strict construction and interpretation of the terms of the document. I venture to say you probably disagree with that interpetation. Fair to say?

You might argue that the First Commandment doesn't mean what it says in that regard, so it would not be right to interpret it so strictly. Yet, at the same time, you would not allow any variance, any interpretation of the First Amendment.

Ergo, then you would have to accept the following equation:

No use of term "separation of church and state"= Jesus is a false god.

You want to make your bed? You gotta lay in it.

@miktoxic said:

Assuming I'm japanese because of my forum name is hilarious. How old are you man? 14? When you can respond inteligibly I'll answer your questions. Until then, grow up dude.

@nobuo said:

wow dude bold fonts and underlining. YOU GOT ME!!!!! isn't nobuo a japanese steakhouse here in manhattan? maybe i'll go tell your dad sojuko happy birthday on december 7th this year? what do you know about america? did you ever serve this fine country of ours, douche?

@miktoxic said:

Show me in the constitution where it says separation of church and state. The wording in the constitution says that government will not establish or support a specific religion. It does not exclude religion from government. Our government was founded on religions beliefs and principles. And while this is America, and you don't have to believe what he believes, this is America and he has the right to believe what he wants to believe.

@brownindian said:

agree!! he's a guy you'd want in you foxhole or on your line. just gotta keep that trap shut! not sold on his nfl qb abilities yet but would definitely put him out there...and who knows: maybe become a man without all the baggage surrounding him.

@ballpeen said:

It's all about the football...and for me, I would take him in a heartbeat.

If it is about football then it is perfectly justified.

@brownindian said:

To all those who say take Tebow cos of his charity - DANG YOU !

To all those who say take Tebow cos of his beliefs - DANG YOU !

To all those who say take Tebow cos MH sees something in him - THANK YOU !

There are 100s of churches in Cleveland where we can find preachers and good men, but this is not about finding the good guy but a good football player.

I don't see anybody saying take him because of those things.....I sense many don't want to take him because of those things.

It's all about the football...and for me, I would take him in a heartbeat.

To all those who say take Tebow cos of his charity - DANG YOU !

To all those who say take Tebow cos of his beliefs - DANG YOU !

To all those who say take Tebow cos MH sees something in him - THANK YOU !

There are 100s of churches in Cleveland where we can find preachers and good men, but this is not about finding the good guy but a good football player.

@nobuo said:

If you want that go live in North Korea or Communist China. This is the United States where people are free to express what they want to express.

I tried to get the thread back OT but I guess that's not gonna happen anymore.

our government separates the church from the state. sure people are free to express their views but they're also free to get punched in the face.

@miktoxic said:

Fail.

If you want that go live in North Korea or Communist China. This is the United States where people are free to express what they want to express.

I tried to get the thread back OT but I guess that's not gonna happen anymore.

@miktoxic said:

Mik I wasn't referring to you in general.... mostly everyone that has a problem with someone saying a prayer.

If he was sacrificing people or animals then I can see a good reason.

@erie-dawg said:

I learned a long time ago that if you go out to the bars, a party, or public in general, too not talk about religion or politics, cause it never ends well for someone.

So Tebow likes to pray, who really gives a flying F**K, are you really that shallow that it bothers you? I'm not a religious man but I have prayed for a little guidance and help a time or two, I think everyone has. Right? Is there a difference other than you were not on TV?

I don't think it's the praying that bothers people, its just this weird nationwide hate that a growing number of people have toward him because he has been successful, and not just another punk ass kid.

I don't know but that's what it seems like to me.

If a little prayer bothers you that much you have deeper underlying issues that you should seek help for.

i really am at this point, just trying to feel out people here on the board. i've gotten into it with two people that are probably the most knowledgeable on the board (the gipper and ballpeen), and learned to pretty much stfu about stuff that i'm not reaaly kean on. in speaking upon the topic of this thread i was only trying to point out that this discussion (concernning tebow's faith etc) is just a waste of time and enegy. and if you've read my other posts you'll note that there is faith in my life. but the belief in my faith is not going to overshadow the fact that i know you on monday morning are trying to get a frappuciono at starbucks. i know you work there and tips are thinner and thinner.....but..........start asking for tips from no-knowledge football geeks who love tim tebow. tell 'em it's a game where the christian women just throw quarters at peiople dressed like bunnies. and come back in prgnant and cute!!

I learned a long time ago that if you go out to the bars, a party, or public in general, too not talk about religion or politics, cause it never ends well for someone.

So Tebow likes to pray, who really gives a flying F**K, are you really that shallow that it bothers you? I'm not a religious man but I have prayed for a little guidance and help a time or two, I think everyone has. Right? Is there a difference other than you were not on TV?

I don't think it's the praying that bothers people, its just this weird nationwide hate that a growing number of people have toward him because he has been successful, and not just another punk ass kid.

I don't know but that's what it seems like to me.

If a little prayer bothers you that much you have deeper underlying issues that you should seek help for.

@ballpeen said:

I just take it as a aging process.....we do get smarter as we age.

i know ball..but man it's tough seeing you're 48 yr old body in front of a line of cats with nothing on their mind of just stripping you............of your dignity and pride.

I just take it as a aging process.....we do get smarter as we age.

@nobuo said:

you're right. let's look at football and not those 'john: frickin 13' black eye tape under his froggy eyes. if it was just about football we wouldn't be having this debate. religion and politics are bad topics on forums, streets or bars (which i'm more familiar with). frickin just outlaw the showing/demonstrating/professing of it in a public forum that not everyone believes in the same thing. the my god is better than your god bullshit is just that. bullshit. turn the cameras off during the prayer circle. i'd like to drop a bomb on that shit personally (right in the middle of the circle........you could have tebow, warner and every other holy roller sitting there holding hands and watch them turn to dust. HA)! THANKS FOR THE RIDE LADY!!!!!

Remember Kenard Lang and his Unibrow?

@nobuo said:

@ Mik - Being a Christian means you believe in and follow Jesus Christ (Christian). So the example Christians use as the standard is Jesus. Therefore if Jesus was outspoken, he too can be outspoken. That doesn't mean Tebow is Jesus or is God or anything like that. It means he can be outspoken. Are personal attacks really that necessary dude? Seriously?

@ Gipper - I also never said because he's outspoken means he has character. I just said he has character, which he does.

Q.Q less people. Stop getting so bent out of shape over the man's religion. He's a person of integrity, he has character, he's a good football player, and he's firm in what he believes. Get over it and lets look at football.

Well, there is one thing I do know about Tebow....and this has nothing to do with his religion, his character, his football ability, or anything else......but he is one of the ugliest persons I have ever seen.

He really is. Though, honestly, if he and Jimmy Clausen had an ugly contest I am not sure who would win.

@ Mik - Being a Christian means you believe in and follow Jesus Christ (Christian). So the example Christians use as the standard is Jesus. Therefore if Jesus was outspoken, he too can be outspoken. That doesn't mean Tebow is Jesus or is God or anything like that. It means he can be outspoken. Are personal attacks really that necessary dude? Seriously?

@ Gipper - I also never said because he's outspoken means he has character. I just said he has character, which he does.

Q.Q less people. Stop getting so bent out of shape over the man's religion. He's a person of integrity, he has character, he's a good football player, and he's firm in what he believes. Get over it and lets look at football.