Formerly Stone said:

Because it is horseshit, and you know it, and you only say what you say to be inflammatory. So you are hereby dismissed.

@browns57 said:

Welcome to the F**king Human Race!

@bob806 said:

Somehow, as I have bitched about before, the NFL truly decided to bitch-slap us in the face by putting his Ratbirds in our division, which recreates these bitter feelings of mine at least twice per year. What a total farce...they belong in the AFC East, or NFL Carpetbagger Division with Tennessee, St. Louis, & Arizona.

One other book one might read regarding this crap, for the umpteenth time, is "False Start."

Gotta go grab a beer, pulse elevating rapidly....

Yes the NFL did bitch slap us! I don't have an issue with the Ravens being in our division one bit! What I do take issue with is the fact that the NFL waited until last minute to announce the Lerners as the new owners. They also didn't give our team the time as given to Jax and Carolina to put everything together. Plus, by the time it was time to pick in the expansion draft we had jack s*** to pick from, while those other two teams got some very good players. I certainly want to read that book "False Start." It's almost like the NFL set us up to fail, as punishment for making such a huge fuss about the move. I don't understand that, because the Browns have a rich legacy, a very large fanbase, and it would have served them well to make sure that they were competitive right off the back. On the other hand, this team has been back 11 years, and we can't keep using the expansion excuse over and over. That being said, I think with hiring Holmgren, and Heckert (two very successful and credible football people) we got it right.

I understand the bitterness for Art Modell, and believe me I was very bitter at the time, but it has definitely subsided quite a bit. Him getting into the HOF (if it ever happens) is not going to cause me to riot or vandalize his bust or do stupid s*** like other people in this town have mentioned! Would I be mad? Sure. I'll tell you if we would have not gotten a team back, then I could see me being a lot more bitter.

@djdawg2010 said:

My bitter feelings on Art will never be erased.

Somehow, as I have bitched about before, the NFL truly decided to bitch-slap us in the face by putting his Ratbirds in our division, which recreates these bitter feelings of mine at least twice per year. What a total farce...they belong in the AFC East, or NFL Carpetbagger Division with Tennessee, St. Louis, & Arizona.

One other book one might read regarding this crap, for the umpteenth time, is "False Start."

Gotta go grab a beer, pulse elevating rapidly....

@the-gipper said:

Actually, seriously, you might want to try reading my posts where I indeed analyze ABM HOF credentials. And he has been weighed, measured and tested and has come up short. There are many with significant superior credentials who deserve induction first.

I read your posts, I mostly don't agree with them but I do read them! And once in a while I find that I do agree. And actually on this thread I have become much more interested in the hate that is consumming this board. And I really really really really really HATE to say this but the super annoying rich4eagle actually got one right when he compared it to the religous and political hate in another thread. Here it is just hate created by sports. The Browns fans hate the Steelers fans, etc.. and in this case a man who wanted more money and power. Well who the hell wouldn't want that. But the hate is absolutely fascinating because when you hate something you are exerting energy that would be much more useful in other areas. It is comical and sad all at the same time. And absolutely fascinating for sure.

@browns57 said:

And if the previous woman were a top notch stripper, you would still tell your buddies that hey she was one hell of a stripper and smoking hot!

that is all I am saying get over it people. give the man credit for his accomplishments. If you believe there are any. Which some of you seem to believe there aren't any. I still don't understand that, unless it is just that hate again clouding analytical abilities.

Yea, but Art was a saggy ass old sow with banana boobs.

Actually, seriously, you might want to try reading my posts where I indeed analyze ABM HOF credentials. And he has been weighed, measured and tested and has come up short. There are many with significant superior credentials who deserve induction first.

@hoorta said:

I would compare it more to when a girl cheats on you with a guy with more money and dumps you to be with him. Or even divorces you first and takes half of your stuff. It sucks and you are pissed at her but in time you get over it and you move on. Your life may suck for a while but then you meet a way better woman.

And if the previous woman were a top notch stripper, you would still tell your buddies that hey she was one hell of a stripper and smoking hot!

that is all I am saying get over it people. give the man credit for his accomplishments. If you believe there are any. Which some of you seem to believe there aren't any. I still don't understand that, unless it is just that hate again clouding analytical abilities.

@djdawg2010 said:

So let me ask this question??? What if, within the next 5 years the Browns win a Super Bowl or 2, and after they do, THEN Art gets inducted, is everyone still pissed off and bitter, or does that erase those feelings?

Well, I'll sort of invoke Goodwin's Law when you bring in the Nazis- Yeah, Germany is cool now, but does that mean we have to forgive Hitler?

@djdawg2010 said:

So let me ask this question??? What if, within the next 5 years the Browns win a Super Bowl or 2, and after they do, THEN Art gets inducted, is everyone still pissed off and bitter, or does that erase those feelings?

I don't know why Modell should be let off the hook just because the Browns may enjoy some later success. I have documented it. Modell isn't a worth candidate under any circumstances, except perhaps in the mind of some Baltimore sportswriter, and I think that if you could bargain with that guy that Modell could be inducted right after Robert Irsay is then any talk of ABM being included with the games greats will then be moot.

@bonedawg said:

While I agree with you about betraying the game and moving the team, I don't think it's so much as wishing Art Modell well, as it is moving on and letting the anger die, and looking to the future. The team has been back now for over 10 years. While they have struggled, at least we now have ownership with more money than all of the rice in China, who is willing to pay to fix previous mistakes. We are on the right track now, and the future of the Browns is more important to me than the past. It's just the way I look at it. And if Art does somehow get inducted into the HOF, I am not going to be extremely thrilled about it, but I'm not going to go out and protest, and do all sorts of stupid s*** the way other Browns fans have contimplated doing!

So let me ask this question??? What if, within the next 5 years the Browns win a Super Bowl or 2, and after they do, THEN Art gets inducted, is everyone still pissed off and bitter, or does that erase those feelings?

For his actions I can never forgive him, ever!!!!!!

Peace

T.Dawg

@roach said:

YES!!! Someone else has read it. Doesn't it change your view a little bit regarding the move? At least it's good to know some of what really went on on the inside. A lot of it had to do with the people he surrounded himself with in the end. It is a must read for all Browns fans!

@djdawg2010 said:

i agree that "Fumble" was a great look from an insiders view of the whole episode. The author, Michael Poplar, was the head finance guy of Modell's Stadium Corp. It chronicles the achievements and failures of Art and walks thru, step by step, the final dealings.

Lee Roy Jordan

Ken Stabler

Ken Anderson

Jim Marshall

Cris Carter

Alex Karras

Jerry Kramer

Steve Tasker

Claude Humphrey

Dermonti Dawson

Cortez Kennedy

Bob Keuchenberg

Randall McDaniel

Paul Tagliabue

Richard Dent

Randy Gradishar

Ray Guy

Andre Reed

L.C. Greenwood

Harry Carson

George Young

Cliff Harris

Lester Hayes

Bill Parcells

Donnie Shell

Wellington Mara

Mac Speedie

Big Daddy Lipscomb

Several of this bunch were finalists last year. No ABM in the group. The one and only time ABM was a finalist was in 2002. No consideration since then. A bunch of the guys on the above list have been finalists numerous times without getting in. I think we have sufficient HOF caliber people that we don't need Art.

@ballpeen said:

I trust you some sort of renovation plan was in place though I honestly don't remember anything set in stone.

Well, that was the whole program that was voted on the very next day. I don't know if it was in stone, but it was certainly on an architect's drawing board.....and in someone's budgeting process.

It seems plans like those had been around a decade. I think bottom line is the city was a day late and dollar short and Art finally said screw it.

It wasn't a day late and a dollar short. It was one more day and the plan that he was part of orchestrating would have been in place!

I will never accuse Art of being a crack businessman. No doubt he needed the money. Seems he was always under funded for whatever reason. Had he been on sounder financial ground, I doubt the move would have taken place.

It really came to a head when the Indians moved out and he lost that rent money....his business plan no longer worked.

I know it's popular to say he should have sold the team, but it was his team. He doesn't have to sell it....and he didn't need to sell...he had a brand new stadium either already planned or built on spec...can't remember which....anyway, the city of Baltimore came to his rescue....too bad the city of Cleveland and region didn't decide a few years earlier to get something done.

Are you not hearing the words that are coming out of my mouth? The plan for the stadium for the Browns that he was instrumental in developing was implemented one day after he made his announcement. That whole process WAS in place for months. Why is this not getting through to you?

Anyway...look at it like this Gip...be fair and impartial here...you know about that....take away the move, or at least hold that in another place for a moment. When you look at what Art did for the NFL from 1960 up until the move....that is a pretty strong body of work. His fingerprint is all over todays NFL. He deserves the HOF on those grounds.

I think I was being impartial when I documented in one of my posts the other 10-12-15 other former or current owners of NFL franchises that have an equal if not greater case for making the HOF as ABM has. Didn't you read that post?

And like I said, my belief is that every single one of those moves you give him credit for were moves that were part of a committee effort or were moves that would have occurred with or without him...except the transfer to the AFC which we know was just done by him for the cashola he received to do it.

So now we have the move. That was what?? Fifteen years ago?? That is a long time to hold a grudge my friends. It isn't healthy to hold something that long. The power isn't in condemnation. The power is in the pardon and forgiveness.

Better yet, how about we just forget him, then forgiveness would be irrelevent.

It comes down to this, quoting Wayne Campbell: "He's not worthy". He can just fade away quietly if he wishes as far as I am concerned.

If Art gets in, be it soon or after his death, my hope is the people in attendance just hold their tongue. Say nothing...or do what the Amish do, just be silent and turn your backs during the ceremony. To me, that would send a far stronger message infused with some class rather than acting like a riotous crowd determined to look like fools.

How about we just leave him out, and we don't have to worry about it. No one nationally is clamoring to get him elected to the HOF. As far as I know he may not even be in any list of finalists. Give it to others that are fully deserving. There are a host of them.

Let's don't become the Philly of the Mid-West. They are bitter, classless people, and they win every now and again.

@the-gipper said:

For the record I don't mind Ozzie working there either. He was on Arts payroll here as some front office muckity muck, so it made sense to move with the job.

I trust you some sort of renovation plan was in place though I honestly don't remember anything set in stone.

It seems plans like those had been around a decade. I think bottom line is the city was a day late and dollar short and Art finally said screw it.

I will never accuse Art of being a crack businessman. No doubt he needed the money. Seems he was always under funded for whatever reason. Had he been on sounder financial ground, I doubt the move would have taken place.

It really came to a head when the Indians moved out and he lost that rent money....his business plan no longer worked.

I know it's popular to say he should have sold the team, but it was his team. He doesn't have to sell it....and he didn't need to sell...he had a brand new stadium either already planned or built on spec...can't remember which....anyway, the city of Baltimore came to his rescue....too bad the city of Cleveland and region didn't decide a few years earlier to get something done.

Anyway...look at it like this Gip...be fair and impartial here...you know about that....take away the move, or at least hold that in another place for a moment. When you look at what Art did for the NFL from 1960 up until the move....that is a pretty strong body of work. His fingerprint is all over todays NFL. He deserves the HOF on those grounds.

So now we have the move. That was what?? Fifteen years ago?? That is a long time to hold a grudge my friends. It isn't healthy to hold something that long. The power isn't in condemnation. The power is in the pardon and forgiveness.

If Art gets in, be it soon or after his death, my hope is the people in attendance just hold their tongue. Say nothing...or do what the Amish do, just be silent and turn your backs during the ceremony. To me, that would send a far stronger message infused with some class rather than acting like a riotous crowd determined to look like fools.

Let's don't become the Philly of the Mid-West. They are bitter, classless people, and they win every now and again.

start with some beef cattle.

I'll supply cowpies.

.I saw one site that showed how they were planning on having 6' culverts placed around his mauseleom, to handle the urine flow, from Cleveland fans whizzing on his grave.

He's the link, this is a neat article.

http://www.erocc.net/ready.html

@djdawg2010 said:

As far as the team leaving a little bit (some blame). But other teams have moved also, so not so much. I think the NFL's job first and foremost is to protect the image of the league as a whole and to make money. I am not sure how keeping a team in Cleveland really dealt to big of a blow in either respect. Would I have liked them to try to block the move, YES! But I think the other factors involved were much more to blame then the NFL. And the NFL made sure we got another team because they knew their was big money to be made by getting a team back in Cleveland.

@browns57 said:

I keep having a thought pop up in my head over and over again though. I remember going to the games in that craphole of a stadium many many years before Art moved the team. And for years hearing and seeing the signs for the whole "jump Art jump" campaign! This was as early as 1990. As a teenager I thought it was funny, but as I have aged and I like to believe matured a little, I think that is absolutely terrible! Low class, and utterly embarrasing. If you remember it got to the point where he didn't even come to the games and sit in his box anymore. Now I am not saying that the disgust and hatred by fans wasn't warranted a little but it also didn't help the situation.

I would think that there had to be a time when Art just said I am fed up with the city, and I am fed up with the darn FANS!!! If they want to curse me out and act like asses then that is all the more reason to take the money from Baltimore and move the team to a city where fans will be happy that I came and brought them back a football team.

So I guess what I am saying is that many of you have placed a lot of blame for what happened in a lot of different places. I am also going to place some blame on those fans (and I would add the media) who treated Modell like complete crap and acted like jerks (and I'm being nice) for years!!!!

Would you agree that the NFL should share some of the blame??

I keep having a thought pop up in my head over and over again though. I remember going to the games in that craphole of a stadium many many years before Art moved the team. And for years hearing and seeing the signs for the whole "jump Art jump" campaign! This was as early as 1990. As a teenager I thought it was funny, but as I have aged and I like to believe matured a little, I think that is absolutely terrible! Low class, and utterly embarrasing. If you remember it got to the point where he didn't even come to the games and sit in his box anymore. Now I am not saying that the disgust and hatred by fans wasn't warranted a little but it also didn't help the situation.

I would think that there had to be a time when Art just said I am fed up with the city, and I am fed up with the darn FANS!!! If they want to curse me out and act like asses then that is all the more reason to take the money from Baltimore and move the team to a city where fans will be happy that I came and brought them back a football team.

So I guess what I am saying is that many of you have placed a lot of blame for what happened in a lot of different places. I am also going to place some blame on those fans (and I would add the media) who treated Modell like complete crap and acted like jerks (and I'm being nice) for years!!!!

@the-gipper said:

Well, again, people forget it was us lawyers that saved the bacon for the Browns and Cleveland.

In a sense, that is absolutely true. The lease between the Browns and the City required specific performance, i.e. the Browns were mandated to play their games in Cleveland Stadium. That mandate was enforceable in a court of law, and it was enforced. A restraining order was issued against Modell and the Browns from playing their games anywhere else except Cleveland Municipal Stadium. The issues of course were what would happen in the interim 3 years? Modell of course could have possibly stripped the team and the Stadium where it wouldn't even come close to resembling an NFL team. He could have had the Browns file Bankruptcy which possibly could have negated the terms of the lease as a last resort.

His danger in doing all that was that he could have been Victor Kiamed out of the league (which, of course he was anyway even after he left here). The NFL would not have wanted the Browns to have been a shell organization, run by Modell and David out of an empty cigar box. They possibly could have forced a sale of the Browns, like they did with the Ravens. And of course, then Lerner may have stepped up. But all that was so speculative, and so gruesome that the NFL didn't want that kind of scenario, so they brokered the settlement that was eventually come up with.

Nevertheless, like I said though, you had the lawyers to thank. So why don't you we all celebrate by declaring this "take your lawyer to lunch week". What do you say, boys and girls? If nothing else at least make a small donation to your resident attorneys. Aside from myself there is ballpeen. But he is retired. Unless there is someone else on here, I guess it is just little ole me.

See and that is why he should have cashed in his chip and sold the team to Lerner. Modell would have saved face with Browns fans, and plus he ended up selling the team anyway. That said, the NFL should have taken the extra step to keep the Browns in Cleveland knowing how rich their history was and how loyal we are as fans. Gip if you ever have a chance read the book "Fumble." The owner of my company had a copy, and let me borrow it, but I'll bet that you can find a copy on Amazon.com.

@djdawg2010 said:

On that note... all we need to erase all those bad memories is one Super Bowl victory (or appearance even). We'll get there. More than likely not this year, but we'll get there.

Well, again, people forget it was us lawyers that saved the bacon for the Browns and Cleveland.

In a sense, that is absolutely true. The lease between the Browns and the City required specific performance, i.e. the Browns were mandated to play their games in Cleveland Stadium. That mandate was enforceable in a court of law, and it was enforced. A restraining order was issued against Modell and the Browns from playing their games anywhere else except Cleveland Municipal Stadium. The issues of course were what would happen in the interim 3 years? Modell of course could have possibly stripped the team and the Stadium where it wouldn't even come close to resembling an NFL team. He could have had the Browns file Bankruptcy which possibly could have negated the terms of the lease as a last resort.

His danger in doing all that was that he could have been Victor Kiamed out of the league (which, of course he was anyway even after he left here). The NFL would not have wanted the Browns to have been a shell organization, run by Modell and David out of an empty cigar box. They possibly could have forced a sale of the Browns, like they did with the Ravens. And of course, then Lerner may have stepped up. But all that was so speculative, and so gruesome that the NFL didn't want that kind of scenario, so they brokered the settlement that was eventually come up with.

Nevertheless, like I said though, you had the lawyers to thank. So why don't you we all celebrate by declaring this "take your lawyer to lunch week". What do you say, boys and girls? If nothing else at least make a small donation to your resident attorneys. Aside from myself there is ballpeen. But he is retired. Unless there is someone else on here, I guess it is just little ole me.