like I said I went through this process before and got a lot hogwash in response............

so I suggest you start with the foundation of the Super Bowl winners.............as in the foundation of every line .......the Center

Yep Shaun O'Hara and pray tell how the Giants got him and from where ......and at what price

Please start and answer in full

Sez, there is no challenge from you. I went out last year and provided the starting OLines of the best teams ...the Giants and Chargers and Patriots(two undrafted FA's) and Indy and others.........

and pointed out where the OL guys came from ................

So I already did due diligence on that and have for years and keep doing it. No need to repeat history one more time for you because you got this fetish on Carolina who could block worth a shit until Williams became the feature back.

Just the way it is.......like Ghoolie reaffirmed................Great Backs make OLines not vice versa......great QB's make OL's not vice versa...........and it is proven over and over and over............

When the hated Maurice Clarett as a freshman ran wild and lead OSU to a National Championship in 2002 the OL got accolades.........the next year with all five returning starters on the OLine (now two of which are starters in the NFL and one a pro bowler) the Buckeyes could run worth a poop and you probably do even know who the running back was....

Impact Players who are playmakers and touch the ball are what makes offenses go..............OL guys are a DIME A DOZEN

and I ax you diss.......the Great Paul Brown never drafted a OL guy on round 1 in his first 11 years of which he had 10 playoff teams and seven Championships........de trenches were filled with Otto and Marion and Dante and Mac

@atenears said:

Can you put up the salary numbers for both Carolina's O-line and Cleveland's O-line?

Are you saying we are spending a 100 Million and they are spending only 10's of Millions (or less?)?

I'm interested in seeing your point, thanks.

No, what he is saying is that our OL is fine. It was fine last year, the year before and the 7 years before that.

What he is saying is that skill players make the OL.

If Jim Browns was not born, Gene Hickerson would be nameless.

Masters said:

I read this whole thread.. Rich pretty much stands alone with his dime a dozen theory.. You really think he won't respond? Hmm.. My guess is he will respond but with excuses and spin.. I still say he CANNOT prove his point per my challenge noted in the above post. He's probably pissed that I called him out.. but it needs to be done.. The theory is stupid and needs to be exposed for what it is..

COME ON RICH...Let's see whatcha got!!!!

Masters said:

Funny how da ich doesn't bring up Edwards much.

@sez.ej said:

I again will say: RICH.. prove your theory...

Show me the top 10 to 15 offensive teams RIGHT NOW or in the past 5 years have dime a dozen lineman.. PROVE to me your theory is not as dumb as I think it is..

Heck , I doubt you can even show me ONE team.

I challenge you. I AM CALLING YOU OUT to show me ...(no show us).. the teams that have dime a dozen lines... that are not giving up ton's of sacks, have top 10 running games, are playoff caliber teams.. I don't believe you can.

He can't and he won't even try.

I again will say: RICH.. prove your theory...

Show me the top 10 to 15 offensive teams RIGHT NOW or in the past 5 years have dime a dozen lineman.. PROVE to me your theory is not as dumb as I think it is..

Heck , I doubt you can even show me ONE team.

I challenge you. I AM CALLING YOU OUT to show me ...(no show us).. the teams that have dime a dozen lines... that are not giving up ton's of sacks, have top 10 running games, are playoff caliber teams.. I don't believe you can.

BTW, I predict that the Squeelers and the dirty rotten filthy nasty stinkin ratbirds both pick an offensive lineman in one of the first two rounds of the next draft.

but I will state again the easiest part of a team to construct is the offensive line and the the number of players who can fit is the most for the offensive line

they are indeed a dime a dozen..........

and they all suck if no skill players are playmakers

simple as that

Paul Brown got it and so do I..........he never wasted high picks on OL guys in 8 championship years

whatever picks were taken on the first round for OL guys in recent times is reflective of the herd mentality........they did reinvent the single this year did they not.........so what happened last year in the draft is not a symtom of being smart but yet another example of dumb is as dumb is...........believing all the wrong stuff that breeds winning..........the smart ones do there thing and build winners the dumb ones spend all their money on the OL and say how smart they are

btw /Tucker may be our best OL guy and Sewage tried to dump him three times already

There were SEVEN (7) OT's TAKEN IN THE FIRST ROUND JUST THIS YEAR ALONE!!!!!!!.. you have no credibility on this topic..cuz the teams are not doing it the dime a dozen way cuz it just won't work, never has, never will. I will back up my statement right here... 2008 draft first round..

Year No. Round Pick Player Name

1 1 1 1 Jake Long Dolphins

2 1 12 12 Ryan Clady Broncos

3 1 14 14 Chris Williams Bears

4 1 17 17 Gosder Cherilus Lions

5 1 19 19 Jeff Otah Panthers

6 1 21 21 Sam Baker Falcons

7 1 26 26 Duane Brown Texans

and the Chiefs took a guard 15th in the first round.

this means 40% (FOURTY PERCENT)..of this years first round picks were taken on the offensive line....... for you that means 8 out of 32 players. case closed.. cuz the fact is you cannot back your "dime a dozen" theory with any real proof... you might be lucky to find ONE team somewhere...some season in some decade.... that has a decent offense without high picks... but we are talking slim to none... you just cannot back up your case with proof.. I have all the proof i need right here in this past draft.

@sez.ej said:

OH, and while I truly enjoy watching Big Ben Toothlesberger get the dogsnot kicked out of him every week because his line sucks only further illustrates my point.. (yeah he holds the ball to long too) They are not winning because of a dominant OL or dominant runningbacks (23rd in the nfl)but a dominant D.

your first two lines support my premise huge rather than defeat.....OL guys are dime a dozen................finding the silver dimes is the key

On DeAngelo Williams.....I made a statement pretty loud that we should draft him..............

We Didn't

This is his third year and NEVER was given a chance until this year......in fact Fox wanted to make Stewart the feature back but stuff happened

Having Williams behind Foster was stupid...he was better the whole time

So it is Williams that has made the Carolina R game explosive

So he did not blossom because of the Oline it was the Oline that blossomed because Williams was finally given a chance

Browns clearly need new mgt starting dumping Sewage......and then Crennel.....and starting all over

We should have never signed Jamal he is toast........finito............and we have never addressed rb since sewage arrived.............and now we have no RB's

Start over clean house

But back to the Panthers....which I go back to your initial post is that the OL suddenly got better when the RB"s came.. Deangelo williams has been there for several years.. pretty much was a 3rd tier runningback.. ask anyone who drafts for fantasy football.. he was no more than an afterthought... It was not until the OL was rebuilt with talent that he has blossomed... Otherwise why did not deshaun foster and deangelo williams tear up the league.. Stewart has not exactly set the world on fire.. he is solid for a rookie and likely a good back.. but I don't see him as the reason for the change.. It's the revamping of the OL... No dime a dozen guys there...

Browns need new mgt on the top.. we do need to replace jamal.. no argument there.. we really need to replace the all the RB's across the board unless harrison is the #3 or 4. He is no superstar.. We need a better OL coach. We need DEFENSE.. We need a GM that is not constantly giving away our draft picks.

OH, and while I truly enjoy watching Big Ben Toothlesberger get the dogsnot kicked out of him every week because his line sucks only further illustrates my point.. (yeah he holds the ball to long too) They are not winning because of a dominant OL or dominant runningbacks (23rd in the nfl)but a dominant D.

In case I reiterate something that was all ready said, my apologies. I read half this thread before I clicked reply...

Talent on the line, or talent in the backfield..... the browns have proved one thing this year.

Talent doesn't mean squat without a coaching staff that can utilize it, make sure it's prepared, etc etc.

What we really need is a coaching draft. We would do better keeping the same players and improving the coaching staff than we would the other way around.

@rich4eagle said:

Unfortunately a lot of it happened interspersed with the need to piss on me!

Stan indeed gets kudos for running an outstanding board albeit he too uses bad judgment at times.

For my good friend Inspecta........two things one a repeat.........again I never said a peep about the fans in this thread just made a correctomundo observation about what it is in what makes winning football.....so you should retract that error.....and I do want Romeo fired..........so that premise is a non starter and also should be retracted

Cal, I appreciate your great post...............except your premise is 100% wrong ......similar to Sewages.........thus discussion is impossible but I will ask how many TD's does Joe Thomas have the last four games or made happen?

For my good friend Flugels. Your posts were magnanimous insightful and full of food for thought.

Solon you are the second best talent evaluator on these threads

Masters you are good football person in need of fundamentals of winning which hinders your abilities. Further your belligerence and denial syndrome hurts your debate skills.......like the math denial stuff

Back to Stan.........and his occasional bad judgment .........choosing a anger management nut case and a complete anus Mr. RifferX as a moderator was not a good thing but heck I can live with him pissing on me at will.

For the rest of you'all that posted thougts about football instead of me...........good job carry on and keep expressing your ideas..........all thinking is encouraged

Now back to business of the two things...........intended in this post.

Success of an offensive line.........and the complete failure of Sewage

Sewage blows and needs fired........that is the main premise always was........no fans mentioned........no players mentioned...........just downright pitiful performance........and that is documented.....it is his team complete control and he sucks........I have listed 29 blunders of Sewage and there are more

The offensive line is what it is and is what all offensive lines are a dime a dozen and pro bowlers when you got studs playing at skill positions and just plain offensive when you do not.............no one here in this long thread addressed why we have zero TD's in four games ......... with our great line that is what makes offenses go.......what gives there?

Romeo, whom I never really addressed but got accused of liking should be sent packing ............unfortunatetely our man Sewage set him up to be the fall guy long ago

Now let's discuss the mush of contention......OL guys and being a dime a dozen...............

Has anyone noticed the Giants offense went comatose the last two weeks without Jacobs and Plaxico...........hmmmmmmmmm dere best line in football did squat......our line produced zero tds in four games........ohhhhh boy.........Steelers have a seive and won 11 games..............NE won three super bowls with two FA lineman

NOW I want to address the three or four misleading sets of numbers presented earlier about payrolls of teams and false comparisons of Browns OL pay vs other supposed top lines ie Carolina and the NYG which were the examples........of course those teams won many games and we lost many

Further I suspect those numbers as well as being wrong took out context such things as bonus money paid up front and bonus money counting against the cap each year.........

So I will post the Browns salaries against the cap this year.............just below

but first I thank Stan for allowing me to be the board whipping boy for always each year year in year out getting right and laughing about the genius reponses congratulating my

brilliance

here are the real numbers for 2008 unemcumbered against the cap...........enjoy and do not counter unless you provide total numbers of the contract including bonuses and pay per year.............thanks again for the spirited lively discussion.......not you riffer or erty or whatever you are a perfect anus incapable of debate.............

Joe Thomas(OL)$9,460,000

Eric Steinbach(OL)$9,266,666

Braylon Edwards(WR)$7,993,750

Jamal Lewis(RB)$6,500,000

Kevin Shaffer(OL)$5,016,041

Ryan Pontbriand(OL)$4,975,000

Kellen Winslow(TE)$4,599,584

Ryan Tucker(OL)4,317,975

Willie McGinest(LB)$3,666,668

Andra Davis(LB)$3,600,000

Shaun Rogers(DT)$3,433,333

Derek Anderson(QB)$3,333,333

Corey Williams(DT)$3,283,333

Joe Jurevicius(WR)$3,062,500

0Robaire Smith(DE)$3,000,000$0$0$0

Rex Hadnot(OL)$2,450,000$0$0$

0Antwan Peek(LB)$2,433,333$0$0$0

Sean Jones(S)$2,421,720$0$0$0

LeCharles Bentley(OL)$2,350,000$0$0$

0Hank Fraley(OL$2,212,500$0$0$

0Shaun Smith(DT)$2,100,000$0$0$0

Kamerion Wimbley(DE)$1,841,250$0$0$0

Steve Heiden(TE)$1,750,000$0$0$0

Dave Zastudil(K)$1,676,720$0$0$0

Phil Dawson(K)$1,470,000$0$0$0

Brady Quinn(QB)$1,440,470$0$0$

0Donte Stallworth(WR)$1,405,000$0$0$0

Brodney Pool(S)$1,106,220$0$0

$0D'Qwell Jackson(LB)$1,105,000$0$0

$0Joshua Cribbs(WR)$1,045,000$0$0$0

Jason Wright(RB)$946,220$0$0$

0Kenny Wright(CB)$945,053$0

$0$Kris Griffin(LB)$933,720

\That comes to 37.7 plus million and if you want to delete Pontribriand subtract 5 million.......

McKinney and Freidman are not listed but make a million betweeon them so add that to the total....... the real number for the OL is 38.7 mil this year........10 mil per win

Paying Lewis what he is making is a joke and best I can tell only Cribbs and Jackson are not overpaid

remember the important thing though.............firing Sewage.........this is what this thread is mainly about and his incompetence

So guys I am turning this back over to you all to engage discuss and reason.........except those who just want to piss on me ............eh riffer er erty

I rest my case now riffer whip your tiny penis out and start peeing on me

Moderate----- Websters...........to lead opposing positions to engage and debate the issues and arrive at logical conclusions............rifferX that is for you if you can comprehend what your job is

730 views and 59 responses in two days from me a no nothing in discussion of a comatose team is pretty damn good I may say..........ole Rich can still generate a big time audience

GO BROWNS

Sorry in the above Tom. I managed to put a typo in your name.

I never was one to blame Palmer. I felt he got screwed and was forced into a no win position. I only blame Policy(he admiited he was a money guy and not a talent guy) for being so stupid as to hire his pal another GM in Training and another loser on the talent evaluation side like Sewage and that was Dwight Clark.....Clark was mostly reponsible for those massive personnel blunders.

As bad as Butch was he is all pro in comparison to Sewage...........Butch let his emotions and poor game day coaching and poor offensive skills drive him into poor decisions ..if he would only had competent people around him instead of yes men he may have done way better......he did have some decent D ideas as opposed to now......Sewage just has no clue...........in fact other than the Oline this team is weaker in all areas than when Butch left.

Anyway.......time to clean house and start over............and neither Cowher or Marty is going to come here and work for Sewage

We are paying nearly 40% of the salary on an offfensive line and we cannot score or run the ball...............WTF is that????

meanwhile the herd is still stuck in the trenches and convinced losing is caused by some alien force......since we have a big time high paid line..maybe the highest in the whole NFL

@rich4eagle said:

Solon you are the second best talent evaluator on these threads

Masters you are good football person in need of fundamentals of winning which hinders your abilities.

Joe Thomas(OL)$9,460,000

Eric Steinbach(OL)$9,266,666

Braylon Edwards(WR)$7,993,750

Jamal Lewis(RB)$6,500,000

Kevin Shaffer(OL)$5,016,041

Ryan Pontbriand(OL)$4,975,000

Kellen Winslow(TE)$4,599,584

Ryan Tucker(OL)4,317,975

Willie McGinest(LB)$3,666,668

Andra Davis(LB)$3,600,000

Shaun Rogers(DT)$3,433,333

Derek Anderson(QB)$3,333,333

Corey Williams(DT)$3,283,333

Joe Jurevicius(WR)$3,062,500

0Robaire Smith(DE)$3,000,000$0$0$0

Rex Hadnot(OL)$2,450,000$0$0$

0Antwan Peek(LB)$2,433,333$0$0$0

Sean Jones(S)$2,421,720$0$0$0

LeCharles Bentley(OL)$2,350,000$0$0$

0Hank Fraley(OL$2,212,500$0$0$

0Shaun Smith(DT)$2,100,000$0$0$0

Kamerion Wimbley(DE)$1,841,250$0$0$0

Steve Heiden(TE)$1,750,000$0$0$0

Dave Zastudil(K)$1,676,720$0$0$0

Phil Dawson(K)$1,470,000$0$0$0

Brady Quinn(QB)$1,440,470$0$0$

0Donte Stallworth(WR)$1,405,000$0$0$0

Brodney Pool(S)$1,106,220$0$0

$0D'Qwell Jackson(LB)$1,105,000$0$0

$0Joshua Cribbs(WR)$1,045,000$0$0$0

Jason Wright(RB)$946,220$0$0$

0Kenny Wright(CB)$945,053$0

$0$Kris Griffin(LB)$933,720

\That comes to 37.7 plus million and if you want to delete Pontribriand subtract 5 million.......

GO BROWNS

Thanks for the kind words Rich! I hope that HOT orange jersey gets you some new perks!

What JUMPS off the page to me is how little Cribbs has been valued since day 1 by Savage with ALL his comments about NOBODY on the current roster being capable of replacing Northcutt. Sorry, but it was one of our COACHES that got Cribbs to Pro Bowl potential rather than the thought we needed to give Northcutt an extension and roster bonus to stay. I think we can all agree that Cribbs is either the 1st or 2nd best player on this team but Savage valued him at the same garage sale prices he valued Jason Wright, Kenny Reef Wright and Kris Griffen give or take a few Abe Lincolns.

BEFORE Baxter got hurt - Savage went after him like he was Deion Sanders. I never Deion Sanders and I saw some stonehands that rival what we got from Braylon Edwards in 2008. Anyway, he was our 3rd highest paid player. And not for nothing but WHO did Joe Andruzzi's physical or workout before he signed on the dotted line? He had less in his tank than the defenseless Jason Fisk had. These are BAD commitments when we overrate guys and paid them accordingly. Good teams aren't overinduldging on shit players. They just aren't. In Cleveland, we got the SAME people that once said BB can't coach, Butch can't coach, Chris palmer can't coach and now RAC can't coach. Before that Bud Carson couldn't coach right? Let me ask why they ONLY sucked in Cleveland?

Policy got a golden helicopter ride out of Cleveland and he was pissing out the side laughing his ass off like all the CEOs walking away with millions as the middle management pee-ons took all the blame and punishment. This ain't any different.

We're gonna change scapegoats for the 4th time since 1999. If we don't get Cowher or Marty's YES price tag - are we any further along than "Chris Palmer was not our first our 2nd choice" just a couple weeks after Policy's lip service stated "we're gonna compete right away?" Lead by example feller!!!! Then came Policy's porcelin pillers Candyass Brown and Tim Couch. Next thing I know people hated palmer the way they hate RAC and I don't remember 1 person hoding Policy the least bit accountable while I read another Cleveland Head Coach was receiving death threats on him and his family. Like THAT is going to endear the NEXT Head Coach to our situation. That's why I'm ALWAYS cautioning people are you sure we're as perfect as the 72 Dolphins the second we fire another scapegoat for 100% of the problems?

Rich, I was GUILTY of being a Savage rah rah and you and I butted heads over him in the past. At least Savage TRIED his ass off to look polished and the part. The trouble with a NOVICE GM is he needs a STRONG Supervisor that isn't off sky-diving on the other side of the Atlantic when he's not scuba diving in the Atlantic. Phil doesn't have what he needs either so even though I vent about him, he does NOT have the environment to succeed IMO. I think Cowher or Marty would improve that environment from the experience level and the assertiveness (RAC lacked) to buffer some of Phil's ideas or suggestions the way Ozzie did. Neither of those guys would EVER consider starting out with securing Andra Davis' future immediately after deciding they need to start their 4 year plan out with Trent Dilfer with Charlie Frye on deck. I'd bet everything I own including my balls on that one.

I'm going to see if we're continuing with lip service when RAC gets dumped or Lerner gives one of the top 2 HC choices the YES price tag. If those don't work I think we're FUBAR because it's right back to wondering what the criteria for any knee jerk decision is. Phil DID say we'd be better in all rounds of the draft instead of just #3 overall picks. This is Phil's 5th offseason and are we any less dependent on free agency? Should we have this many holes? C, RG, RT, RB, #2 WR, OLB, ILB, CB, backup NT that at least offers resistance, and how about a reliable 3rd WR? Have we solved the staph infection problems following every surgery yet? And I think the TEAM Doctor that said guys like Jason Fisk and Joe Andruzzi's bodies were ready to play like millionaires should be fired so there's another important hire to give our GM better advice on personnel decisions. If I thought we were just 1 easy firing away from perfection - I would stand tall with just heal 1 symptom of dysfunction disease. But you don't cure the disease unless you treat ALL of it. Hiring Bill or Marty would make me say KEEP Savage because we got expereinced bufferability. If not, we need to do what Atl and Miami just did in hiring a new HC & GM.

- Tom F. (This ain't the subject I can give a yes dear reply to just fire Chubby Cheekers to unless the RIGHT actions follow. I don't want to relive the same nightmare a 4th time since 99 because I'm not as emotionally equipped as others.)

.....what is great about the Carolina Line is called DeAngelo Williams and Jon Stewart.........that is what is correct there. Now that yu are on a roll please explain how the great success of NE and NYG and Indy and Pitts is because of the great offensive lines.

Indeed since Plaxico and Jacobs been out the NYG line has been manhandled and NOT GOOD

NE was unsackable with Brady but not with Cassel

Bmore and Pittsburgh (who had canned two starters already this year and has a cast off from Carolina at center) are well winning...............OLINE caused this RIGHT????

Pray tell why Minnesota suddenly has an awesome running game.............duh Peterson........naw it must be the OLine

Please explain how Tenn's great OLINE is the cause of them winning..........and pray tell also tell me why Roman Oben got cut by the Browns but played left tackle for

SD when Tomlinson was running wild and they were winning 12 games(btw their line musta turned to poop over the winter)

and why Lomas Brown got cut by the Browns but started in the Super Bowl for the Giants and obtw Oben started at LT for Tampa in the Super Bowl after we cut him as well...and why is Shaun O'Hara a pro bowler and Super Bowl center for the Giants who we cut as well............if this line play is so obvious about who can play and who cannot play why did we cut Oben, Lomas, and O'Hara.........and it does not stop there.....how bout Shaffer and Andruzzi and pile driver Garman......and why the hell can we not run the ball with our studs up front?????.........not to mention our 6 million dollar back who makes more than both Carolina backs

NOW DRUM ROLL ON HOW I AM SO WRONG...........we got a 38 million dollar line with two pro bowlers last year and a 6 million dollar feature back and We the Browns cannot run the football not all year......no matter the QB.....Anderson with Quinn and with Dorsey............and now sacks are coming as well.....and worse in four weeks no TD's please explain how this can be with our great highly paid line....hmmmm..........

So which part of this is a fubar.............all that money and we cannot run the ball worse we cannot score.............WITH THAT GREAT OLINE WE GOT

which part sucks..............please explain!!!!!.......you all can rationalize all you want ........I get it and you do not and Browns just keep losing because they have a lousy GM, a mediocre coach and are devoid of impact skill players and disruptive D players...........bottom line Browns suffer from LOFT(lack of frigging talent) and losing

That is what it is and will be until we either get real lucky and that ain't gonna OL guys are we get smart and fire Sewage and bring in a real GM

NOw Sez let's keep discussing this....I really look forward to digging into it ......Carolina is one team........so this is not about them......but is about their coach who we fired......so lets continue

BUT

....unfortunately a whining crybaby interjected between our points counter points..........

I must defer from our discussion to answer our resident whiner.....please forgive me while I trangress with this jamoke

masters....first off you are either totally arrogant or totally stupid take your pick.........I started this thread and set forth the subject matter.........so I can stay on subject matter because I defined the subject matter....you can deflect it away if you wish but indeed I can or anyone can come back to the subject matter as described in the lead post...........you are way off base with the inadequate assertion you made above.......you are a whiner who is now attempting to confuse folks with intent of discrediting my outstanding acumen........ using of your crybaby we all need to hate rich messages........so you lose again ....you cannot do simple math ..you cannot do deductive reasoning.....you cannot be objective.........you are a whiner and insult other members intelligence by talking about people(me) more than the issues........thanks again for making the disucssion about me..........you are a piece of work.......and the whiney messages never stop do they.............you again attempt to make the thread about me .......this discussion is about the Browns and failure on offense and their lousy GM and Jeff Davidson's success in Carolina .....and the fact that OLINEs are a dime a dozen..........NOT CAROLINA's line.........but why they can run so well...........and it is because of the offensive schemes and two great running backs..........but you just do not get it Masters.............now please refrain from throwing more shit on the wall about ME ........ it would be appreciated if you refrained from making people on the forum the topic and allowed guys like Sez and I or whomever who want to debate do that .........the members here are adults they certainly have the intelligence to judge me without help from you whining about me.........It is disgustin for a grown man whining like a three year old......