Zombo

@the-gipper said:

I was (am) lost too

@clevfan4life said:

Curious why you dredged up this thread after 5 years....a thread that has nothing to do with your current post. Interesting.

@hoorta said:

Revisionist history can kill you- and I've done the "what if" post way too many times- but the Browns were they were in the early 2000s due to terrible drafting. Those "consensus' picks didn't mean diddly- the guys couldn't play. LOL, we wouldn't have needed Willie Green if we had drafted LaDanian Tomlinson the year before, but it was brought up just how well Kurt Warner would have fared if Clark had ESP and taken him in the expansion draft.

20\20 hindsight says we should have taken the Ditka trade- but not if we drafted guys like Rahim Abdullah.

The Ditka deal to me would have been a no brainer. We needed so much help at that point it would have made too much sense to do that deal. Obviously scouting is a huge key to the draft and our staff in charge of drafting wasn't the best ... but the draft is also a numbers game to a certain extent and I am sure we would have gotten something out of all those extra picks. It would have been pretty cool to to see us with the 1 and 2 overall picks in the 2000 draft also.

It is nauseating to think how many picks we had, and blew nearly all of them.

@xfl2001fan said:

Unfortunately, too many people suffer from revisionist history...where they believe we could go back (knowing now what we didn't know then) and make better decisions.

I was excited about the Couch pick back then...though I realized (shortly afterwards) that we really desperately needed to fix our O-line. I loved KJ as a WR...but he was better suited for a #2 role...and not the #1. I wouldn't have minded having Donovan McNabb..because his athleticism might have allowed him to survive our O-line issues (well, at least he would have survived longer.)

Regardless, Couch as a pick wasn't necessarily a mistake, but the teams plan for building was.

Revisionist history can kill you- and I've done the "what if" post way too many times- but the Browns were they were in the early 2000s due to terrible drafting. Those "consensus' picks didn't mean diddly- the guys couldn't play. LOL, we wouldn't have needed Willie Green if we had drafted LaDanian Tomlinson the year before, but it was brought up just how well Kurt Warner would have fared if Clark had ESP and taken him in the expansion draft.

20\20 hindsight says we should have taken the Ditka trade- but not if we drafted guys like Rahim Abdullah.

@xfl2001fan said:

You are referring to Akili Smith. This was also the same year that Edgerrin James and Ricky Williams were drafted. Torry Holt, Champ Bailey, David Boston (the OSU homer in me wanted him pretty bad, hehe) Overall, it was actually a pretty good draft (in the first round). I was a bit intrigued by McNabb's mobility. But Couch was the consensus #1 guy in that draft.

Still wish the Browns had given more thought to their offensive and defensive lines...but we were so late to the game putting a team together...that it's hardly surprising.

We spent 2 top 5 picks on D-Line in years 2 and 3. They obviously just didn't work out.

I always wondered what Couch would have been with a good line. He always struck me as a guy with big heart which is a great thing and he has some glimpses where he did look like he was on the right track. I am also curious to see what would have happened to Kurt Warner if for some reason we would taken him in the expansion draft (St. Louis left him unprotected) Would he have had any sort of success with us??

All those second round picks we wasted on WR's is honestly what I think killed us.

Faine wasn't a bad pick either. It isn't like we took him top 10. We took him the draft after we actually made the playoffs and he has had a pretty decent career.

@xfl2001fan said:

You are referring to Akili Smith. This was also the same year that Edgerrin James and Ricky Williams were drafted. Torry Holt, Champ Bailey, David Boston (the OSU homer in me wanted him pretty bad, hehe) Overall, it was actually a pretty good draft (in the first round). I was a bit intrigued by McNabb's mobility. But Couch was the consensus #1 guy in that draft.

Still wish the Browns had given more thought to their offensive and defensive lines...but we were so late to the game putting a team together...that it's hardly surprising.

yes, thanks. and i think he was drafted by cincy? i kinda remember him coming into cleveland and pretty much being irrelevant in that game. yes they had good players in that draft and yes our FO back then went for glam instead of building around and looking forward to future drafts which we've been trying to fix the last ten years. i believed in mangini and heckertt. now it's the doughboy and heckertt. at least i see the relevance in these last couple of years' picks.

hey things can only get better, i guess. let's hope so anyways!

@miktoxic said:

but mcnabb wasn't even in the top 5 discussion that year. wasn't it between couch and the guy that played for the ducks (can't remember his name right now but he swore vengeance on the browns for not picking him #1 and he didn't even last a couple of years in the league)?

i loved the couch pick. i'll never forget watching the hall of fame game in that incumbent year where couch floated the over the shoulder pass to kj in the end zone. thought we had something there. but you who say you build from the center out (on both sides) are correct. i would've thrown everyone except couch in there for a couple of years and drafted a sure fire c, nt, then rb and safety when available in those first couple of years back. not a jeff faine or a william green.

You are referring to Akili Smith. This was also the same year that Edgerrin James and Ricky Williams were drafted. Torry Holt, Champ Bailey, David Boston (the OSU homer in me wanted him pretty bad, hehe) Overall, it was actually a pretty good draft (in the first round). I was a bit intrigued by McNabb's mobility. But Couch was the consensus #1 guy in that draft.

Still wish the Browns had given more thought to their offensive and defensive lines...but we were so late to the game putting a team together...that it's hardly surprising.

i loved the couch pick. i'll never forget watching the hall of fame game in that incumbent year where couch floated the over the shoulder pass to kj in the end zone. thought we had something there. but you who say you build from the center out (on both sides) are correct. i would've thrown everyone except couch in there for a couple of years and drafted a sure fire c, nt, then rb and safety when available in those first couple of years back. not a jeff faine or a william green.

@jnuh said:

Even knowing what we know now I still would rather roll the dice and try and draft a franchise QB then select Damien Woody with the ONE overall.

I don't disagree in the least bit. I think that the Browns should have worked their O-line immediately after that...whether it's trading for lineman using draft picks, or drafting them.

Like I said earlier...I don't think that drafting Couch was a mistake...I think that McNabb would have been a smarter pick...and that Couch would have been a success had he been drafted by the Eagles. McNabb's mobility would have given us a much greater chance at success.

@xfl2001fan said:

Unfortunately, too many people suffer from revisionist history...where they believe we could go back (knowing now what we didn't know then) and make better decisions.

I was excited about the Couch pick back then...though I realized (shortly afterwards) that we really desperately needed to fix our O-line. I loved KJ as a WR...but he was better suited for a #2 role...and not the #1. I wouldn't have minded having Donovan McNabb..because his athleticism might have allowed him to survive our O-line issues (well, at least he would have survived longer.)

Regardless, Couch as a pick wasn't necessarily a mistake, but the teams plan for building was.

Even knowing what we know now I still would rather roll the dice and try and draft a franchise QB then select Damien Woody with the ONE overall.

@jnuh said:

Really?? Damien Woody or John Tait first overall?? I am all for building the trenches ... but coming out Woody was a center/gaurd you cant take him one overall. Neother of those guys weren't even top 10 picks (if I remember correctly ... maybe top 15) Drafting one of them would have fine if they traded out of the spot, but at one that would have been looked at as the dumbest draft day move ever.

Unfortunately, too many people suffer from revisionist history...where they believe we could go back (knowing now what we didn't know then) and make better decisions.

I was excited about the Couch pick back then...though I realized (shortly afterwards) that we really desperately needed to fix our O-line. I loved KJ as a WR...but he was better suited for a #2 role...and not the #1. I wouldn't have minded having Donovan McNabb..because his athleticism might have allowed him to survive our O-line issues (well, at least he would have survived longer.)

Regardless, Couch as a pick wasn't necessarily a mistake, but the teams plan for building was.

@beefjerky said:

Which is exactly why you don't pick Tim Couch, I'm not blaming Tim Couch, I'm blaming the management at the time for picking him with nothing around him. They set him up for failure. He got that big fat contract which was eating away cap space, and I hear that he's actually still getting checks although I'm not sure if that's true.

They could have signed a veteran QB to build the team first. Damien Woody or John Tait would have been a better pick that year, since I'm assuming they probably couldn't trade down, at the time everyone would have criticized and been unhappy with the pick, but it would have actually been the best pick.

And if the trade down was actually possible, then the Browns management that year was even dumber.

Really?? Damien Woody or John Tait first overall?? I am all for building the trenches ... but coming out Woody was a center/gaurd you cant take him one overall. Neither of those guys were even top 10 picks (if I remember correctly ... maybe top 15) Drafting one of them would have fine if they traded out of the spot, but at one that would have been looked at as the dumbest draft day move ever.

The actual Couch pick was fine ... it was the picks after him that were the problem. They should have focused the rest of that draft and the following draft on suring up the O-Line maybe even continue that into 01 and 02. KJ was a nice WR - but they wasted our second round picks in 00-02 on Northcutt-Morgan-A. Davis all those were DUMB moves. Were they planning on running a run and shoot??

I also hated the William Green pick because I loved Portis coming out that year and figured Butch would have too. We could have had a real stud (LaCharles was who I wanted or Ed Reed was on the board ... dumb Butch loved Miami guys except 2 of the best over the last 10 years) that year instead of Green and then Portis in the second instead of Davis.

It is all water under the bridge though. And I love the trading for multiple picks and building through the draft. Especially the trenches.

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:

Michael Turner, not Matt Forte.

I just farted a Cinnabon.

BAH...good catch. Regardless...they have (I believe) 12 players who are UFA...many of which were key to last season's playoff run. It'll be hard for them to keep them all...and unless Julio Jones turns out to be Randy Moss/Larry Fitzgerald, he won't have near as much of an impact (this year) as a lot of Falcon fans are hoping for.

I just farted a Cinnabon.

Outside of their division (which also has New Orleans and an up and coming Tampa Bay), they have the NFCN and AFCS.

At Chicago, Indianapolis, Houston, Detroit and Seattle

Home for Philly, Green Bay, Minnesota, Tennessee and Jacksonville

There are a lot of tough teams on that schedule...and if they have any health issues (or problems retaining their own free agents, let alone bringing in a few new ones), they could easily be on the outside looking in. I can easily see this being a pick that is between 10 and 15.

@beefjerky said:

I didn't like it at first but then when I thought about it, it was the right move. We need a lot of players right now and we get their 2nd this year as well. As well as their 1st next year(which will likely be in the 20s but still), and some late rounders this/next year.

I would have hated it if Green was available, but alas, he wasn't.

Definitely like Heckert so much better than what we had before (Mangini who was worse, and then Savage who was 1000000x worse). He definitely knows what he's doing.

My original and ongoing thought is if you have nothing start with an offensive stud who touches the ball. So at first, like you I hated the move. But we get a lot in return. The problem with that thinking unless you know who want and can get them, FA's can fill a lot of holes. Is Heckert the new Belichick.............nothing says so so far.........and Holmgren disappoints in recent months

But we have a new braintrust that has a brain instead of being braindead for nearly ten years

@beefjerky said:

Which is exactly why you don't pick Tim Couch, I'm not blaming Tim Couch, I'm blaming the management at the time for picking him with nothing around him. They set him up for failure. He got that big fat contract which was eating away cap space, and I hear that he's actually still getting checks although I'm not sure if that's true.

OK, fair enough. We are on the same page there though I don't think it was an issue of the cap space it was just an issue of them not having anything else around him then throwing him to the wolves.

They could have signed a veteran QB to build the team first.

They did sign a veteran QB: Ty Detmer. Its just that when they lost that first game so badly to the Steelers they panicked and insisted on putting Couch in there.

Damien Woody or John Tait would have been a better pick that year, since I'm assuming they probably couldn't trade down, at the time everyone would have criticized and been unhappy with the pick, but it would have actually been the best pick.

And if the trade down was actually possible, then the Browns management that year was even dumber.

Hell yes, the trade down was possible. In fact, remember that Mike Ditka offered to trade all of his draft choices for the right to get Ricky Williams. The Browns should have taken that for sure. The thing they needed then was a multiplicity of decent talented bodies, not one "flash package" of a rookie QB on an expansion team.

(the only problem of course was that even if they had traded that first pick for multiple picks, Clark or whoever was choosing was doing such a poor job that he would have probably blew all those extra picks on poor choices as well, just like he did for 3 years.

@the-gipper said:

I think you both may have your heads where the sun don't shine. The Tim Couch pick didn't put the franchise back. It was the lack of getting any talent on the O-line in front of him and a decent RB behind him, and the demand that he be immediately thrown into the fire that set back the franchise. Aside from that he is still the only QB that has led this team to the playoffs since 1999.

Also, where do you think it was that Courtney Brown and Gerard Warren played? Ballerina? They played in the trenches....and all they ended up having was trench mouth. Yes, building up the trenches is a good idea.....as long as you pick the right people, just like any other position.

Which is exactly why you don't pick Tim Couch, I'm not blaming Tim Couch, I'm blaming the management at the time for picking him with nothing around him. They set him up for failure. He got that big fat contract which was eating away cap space, and I hear that he's actually still getting checks although I'm not sure if that's true.

They could have signed a veteran QB to build the team first. Damien Woody or John Tait would have been a better pick that year, since I'm assuming they probably couldn't trade down, at the time everyone would have criticized and been unhappy with the pick, but it would have actually been the best pick.

And if the trade down was actually possible, then the Browns management that year was even dumber.

@gmp said:

Big Friggin Deal..watch Julio Jones blow up and be an all time great! while the Browns 5 picks are mutts.

Happens all the time...still no skilled position players??? yawn!!

Did you watch any of the draft? Especially the series of Jon Gruden clips of Jones where he looked like Braylon Edwards II? Scared the bejusus out of me, and glad we didn't take him.

This team isn't going to the playoffs this year, stockpiling future picks was a great idea- and most of the pundits thought the Browns made the best trade of Day 1.

@loyalty said:

One of the best posts so far...

Exactly right. This team is not a playoff contender until 2013 at the soonest. Build through the draft and success will follow.

Tim Couch, Courtney Brown, Gerard Warren, Winslow, Edwards.... See the trend?...

Joe Thomas, Alex Mack, Phil Taylor (if he doesn't blow up to 400 lbs).... See the trend?... Build from the trenches up and you will see LASTING improvement.

I think you both may have your heads where the sun don't shine. The Tim Couch pick didn't put the franchise back. It was the lack of getting any talent on the O-line in front of him and a decent RB behind him, and the demand that he be immediately thrown into the fire that set back the franchise. Aside from that he is still the only QB that has led this team to the playoffs since 1999.

Also, where do you think it was that Courtney Brown and Gerard Warren played? Ballerina? They played in the trenches....and all they ended up having was trench mouth. Yes, building up the trenches is a good idea.....as long as you pick the right people, just like any other position.