@cantonlegend said:

nothing is obvious to you because you cant accept anything at face value. you're too concerned with being an old grumpy argumentative ass. they didnt want him as badly as they wanted the 5 picks the falcons gave up to move up and get him....damn right

And, apparently, you are too concerned with being a young dickhead. Here is the crux of this argument: You claim that WR is/was the position that the Browns were most in need of going into the draft. I said, no, the position the Browns are most in need of was DL, either DT or DE.

Now, the question is: who is right. Me, or you. And the answer is Me. DL WAS a more critical need for the Browns over WR. I am not denying that WR was a critical need, just not as critical as DL. Give that the Browns traded out of the slot at #6 when there was supposedly a gamebreaking WR available, and given that their first two picks were DL, I will rest my case that the Browns braintrust believed as I do that DL was more critical to this teams needs.

Now wrap your little head around that.

you say DL was a bigger need because they picked defensive linemen with their first 2 picks while you also ignore the value aspect of picking. you dont pick a 2nd round guy in the first round if hes not worthy of that pick.

I didn't ignore a God damn thing.

little wasnt worth a high second or a low first....thats why he was picked so late in the 2nd round and probably would've slipped into the 3rd except the browns didnt have a 3rd round pick anymore because they traded it to KC so they needed to get him there.

OK, fine, what is your point? This still supports my argument that the Browns brass felt that DL was more critical. They were willing to wait until the late 2d to get a WR that they needed...AFTER they had picked up a couple of DL.

he may have been the 4th or 5th best rated WR in the draft(6th WR picked), but it was a very weak WR draft in the first place so ranking him among the other WRs doesnt really show the talent dropoff after julio and green

heck, hes a 2nd round pick so hes gotta be good...just like robiskie and massaquoi right? lmao neither of them have panned out to anything as of yet. so yea the browns had a great draft. they stocked up on defensive players and an underrated WR and TE.....but they dropped the ball when they waited to take little instead of grabbing a better guy earlier in the draft

Well, Nostradumbass, that all remains to be seen now, doesn't it? Mistakes are made in the drafting process. I don't disagree with you that Little may have been picked right where he should have been...if you go by the ratings of the so called experts. For all we know the future may prove that they got the BEST guy later in the draft. Maybe Little will become the next Paul Warfield. Whether they dropped the ball remains to be seen. I will bet you that if you confront Tom Heckert and Mike Holmgren with your accusation that they dropped the ball by not getting a better WR earlier they will argue with you. They felt that it was much more valuable for them to get Atlanta's various draft picks in that trade than to take Julio Jones...which trade allowed them to take multiple players at a more critical position: DL.

@calfoxwc said:

you say DL was a bigger need because they picked defensive linemen with their first 2 picks while you also ignore the value aspect of picking. you dont pick a 2nd round guy in the first round if hes not worthy of that pick. CL

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Baloney. Just because some rated first round guys fall to the second round, there's a lot of reasons for that. It isn't necessarily a lack of first round talent.

Odds are, you'd get a better player in the first. But the NFL is full of players who beat the odds. You don't know the meaning of "value aspect of picking".

Your whole argument seems to be bogus. The Browns had their eye on Little, and they picked their defensive guys in the first two choices, because the DL was a critical priority,

and their two choices were perfect. The fact that they figured, in a deep class of wr's and dl, that they could work it that way.... was brilliant.

Exactly Cal. Last year the draft "experts" thought the Browns did a serious reach to take TJ Ward in the second round when THEY thought he was going to last until the fourth because of injury concerns. Turns out Heckert was right and THEY (and most of us) were wrong.

**********************************************

Baloney. Just because some rated first round guys fall to the second round, there's a lot of reasons for that. It isn't necessarily a lack of first round talent.

Odds are, you'd get a better player in the first. But the NFL is full of players who beat the odds. You don't know the meaning of "value aspect of picking".

Your whole argument seems to be bogus. The Browns had their eye on Little, and they picked their defensive guys in the first two choices, because the DL was a critical priority,

and their two choices were perfect. The fact that they figured, in a deep class of wr's and dl, that they could work it that way.... was brilliant.

@beefjerky said:

I thought I read something where they were moving him to MLB, cause he would probably fit better there regardless if he's played at OLB his whole career, well my mistake on that. Gocong should not be a starter and I'm not sure why they would even think of starting him, he was mediocre in the 4-3, mediocre in the 3-4, why would he not be mediocre this time?

I suppose Roth is big enough to play DE but they've said they're looking for an FA DE opposite of Sheard(that could technically mean Roth but I doubt it). Some have said Ray Edwards as a possible guy.

I still think they should change Cribbs' position to be a situational RB/KR, or sign Bush if the price is right to take the strain off of Hillis.

Well it has come straight from Heckert and Shurmers mouths that as of this moment Gocong is MLB and Fujita and Jaskon are OLBs with Fujita only playing on the outside. Also I am not saying that they are going to use Roth as a DE, I'm saying that IF he gets resigned (notice I said resigned because he is a FA now) he would play DE.

@cantonlegend said:

nothing is obvious to you because you cant accept anything at face value. you're too concerned with being an old grumpy argumentative ass. they didnt want him as badly as they wanted the 5 picks the falcons gave up to move up and get him....damn right

you say DL was a bigger need because they picked defensive linemen with their first 2 picks while you also ignore the value aspect of picking. you dont pick a 2nd round guy in the first round if hes not worthy of that pick. little wasnt worth a high second or a low first....thats why he was picked so late in the 2nd round and probably would've slipped into the 3rd except the browns didnt have a 3rd round pick anymore because they traded it to KC so they needed to get him there.

he may have been the 4th or 5th best rated WR in the draft(6th WR picked), but it was a very weak WR draft in the first place so ranking him among the other WRs doesnt really show the talent dropoff after julio and green

heck, hes a 2nd round pick so hes gotta be good...just like robiskie and massaquoi right? lmao neither of them have panned out to anything as of yet. so yea the browns had a great draft. they stocked up on defensive players and an underrated WR and TE.....but they dropped the ball when they waited to take little instead of grabbing a better guy earlier in the draft

IMO the only reason Little fell was because of the suspension (some draftnicks had Quinn as the #1 player on their board without the suspension)and his relatively slow 40 time. Well guess what- Jerry Rice and Ray Lewis had relatively slow 40 times too.

I'm not saying Little is going to be great- but he was well worth taking a shot on in the low second round. And after AJ Green came off the board- well Jones has questions about his hands- in some of the film clips you'd swear you saw the second coming of Butterfingers Braylon Edwards- and Baldwin has character issues. The Ravens took the guy I was interested in (Torrey Smith) one pick ahead of the Browns- and Titus Young taken by the Lions weighs in at 175 pounds- not exactly prototypical size.

You get busts all over the draft- including the first round- and as I pointed out earlier, great WRs show up all over the draft- based on their NFL production, I'd say the Steelers and Saints got first round talent in the third and seventh round respectively when they took Wallace and Colston. OTOH, the Browns certainly didn't get their money's worth out of Edwards and Winslow.

nothing is obvious to you because you cant accept anything at face value. you're too concerned with being an old grumpy argumentative ass. they didnt want him as badly as they wanted the 5 picks the falcons gave up to move up and get him....damn right

Yes. Teams draft on need. The fact that you just contradicted yourself shows what little you know, Mr. Non-expert. The Browns NEEDED DL more than they needed a WR. Period. There is little use arguing that....because the actions of the Browns front office proved that. They put their prime investments into DL. Did they need a WR? Yea, but not as bad as they needed DL. Plain and simple fact.

however, reaching a bit and taking a WR in the 2nd round shows how big of a need it actually was

You are making the unsubstantiated assumption that taking Little in the late 2d round was a reach. I say BS. Many if not most scouting reports had him as the 4th best WR available. three WRs went in the first round...Green, Jones, Baldwin, and two went in the second round ahead of him: Titus Young and Torrey Smith. So, by no means can you assume that the Little pick was a reach....ass-u-me.

you say DL was a bigger need because they picked defensive linemen with their first 2 picks while you also ignore the value aspect of picking. you dont pick a 2nd round guy in the first round if hes not worthy of that pick. little wasnt worth a high second or a low first....thats why he was picked so late in the 2nd round and probably would've slipped into the 3rd except the browns didnt have a 3rd round pick anymore because they traded it to KC so they needed to get him there.

he may have been the 4th or 5th best rated WR in the draft(6th WR picked), but it was a very weak WR draft in the first place so ranking him among the other WRs doesnt really show the talent dropoff after julio and green

heck, hes a 2nd round pick so hes gotta be good...just like robiskie and massaquoi right? lmao neither of them have panned out to anything as of yet. so yea the browns had a great draft. they stocked up on defensive players and an underrated WR and TE.....but they dropped the ball when they waited to take little instead of grabbing a better guy earlier in the draft

They wouldn't have drafted him at 6.. it wasn't necessary. The extra picks are exactly

what the Browns needed. Putting down Little because he wasn't picked in the first round, is baloney.

Little is a bit raw, but he has the serious work ethic, smarts to be a great wr for the Browns.

He proved he's very, very coachable, and that he really wants to excel.

He HAS the size and talent - and not just a few NFl and ESPN folks think that Little may very well have had the best hands in the draft....

or at least, hands as good as Green... And, YES, the DL was a critical need. Trading down to get Talor, then getting the DE, was brilliant.

But to be able to land Little, too...

All you have to do, is catch the NFL channel "Replay" of last year''s Browns-Jets game - which I watched again, yesterday. When the Browns needed to drive down the field and tie it up with only 2 minutes left, they did it. The Browns aren't that far away, And MoMass is showing promise of being a fine wr.

Lastly - Cantonlegend, if you think Little is marginal because of where he was drafted.... why do you think he was ON the show with A.J. Green ?

It was Green and Little on the show - not Green and Baldwin/Smith/anybody else. We'll see how it plays out.

The Browns are getting A+ to B on most all of their draft grades. It was a brilliant draft, I think.

@cantonlegend said:

actually, its widely accepted that the browns traded back because atlanta traded their whole draft to move up. had they stayed put its obvious they would've taken julio

No, nothing is obvious. If they wanted Julio, they could have taken Julio. They didn't want him.

the fact that they traded back put their draft on a different road. phil taylor was a need as well as the BPA...sheard was also a first round talent that slipped slightly and was available at 37 when there were no WRs worth being taken there.

it was only their 3rd pick when a WR was actually worthy of being taken at that spot

teams draft on need and value....simply saying that they waited to take a WR proves that it wasnt the biggest need shows how little you know about the draft mr expert

Yes. Teams draft on need. The fact that you just contradicted yourself shows what little you know, Mr. Non-expert. The Browns NEEDED DL more than they needed a WR. Period. There is little use arguing that....because the actions of the Browns front office proved that. They put their prime investments into DL. Did they need a WR? Yea, but not as bad as they needed DL. Plain and simple fact.

however, reaching a bit and taking a WR in the 2nd round shows how big of a need it actually was

You are making the unsubstantiated assumption that taking Little in the late 2d round was a reach. I say BS. Many if not most scouting reports had him as the 4th best WR available. three WRs went in the first round...Green, Jones, Baldwin, and two went in the second round ahead of him: Titus Young and Torrey Smith. So, by no means can you assume that the Little pick was a reach....ass-u-me.

@the-gipper said:

Actually, that is not true, or wasn't before the draft. The DL was the most glaring weakness on the team because they literally had no one on the roster to play those spots except unproven street free agents. At least at WR they had players, at DL they didn't. If the Browns didn't also think that way then they would not have taken a DT and a DE with their first two picks.

actually, its widely accepted that the browns traded back because atlanta traded their whole draft to move up. had they stayed put its obvious they would've taken julio

the fact that they traded back put their draft on a different road. phil taylor was a need as well as the BPA...sheard was also a first round talent that slipped slightly and was available at 37 when there were no WRs worth being taken there

it was only their 3rd pick when a WR was actually worthy of being taken at that spot

teams draft on need and value....simply saying that they waited to take a WR proves that it wasnt the biggest need shows how little you know about the draft mr expert

however, reaching a bit and taking a WR in the 2nd round shows how big of a need it actually was

@cantonlegend said:

thats not good news considering the talent(or lack of) at the WR and TE positions

there is a reason so many mocks had the brownies takin a WR with the first pick....its easily the most glaring weakness on the team right now....especially considering the new pass first offense

Actually, that is not true, or wasn't before the draft. The DL was the most glaring weakness on the team because they literally had no one on the roster to play those spots except unproven street free agents. At least at WR they had players, at DL they didn't. If the Browns didn't also think that way then they would not have taken a DT and a DE with their first two picks.

@secondwave said:

and gay

We'll take your word being as you are the expert on all things gay.

@blowe said:

That is a ridiculously huge hexagon.

It wasn't nearly that big on the photo that I copied. I don't know why it came out that way.

Hillis-iz-Boss said:

Why would they move a guy who has played OLB his whole career to MLB!? Jesus look stuff up before you post garbage like this. They have said at least a dozen times that at the moment their LB core is Fujita at OLB (strong), Gocong at MLB, and Jackson at OLB (weak). They have also stated that Gocong could play all 3 positions and Jackson could play middle, but Fujita will only play at Strong side OLB.

As far as Trusik and Roth goes, if both are still on the team next year they are going to be playing DE.

I thought I read something where they were moving him to MLB, cause he would probably fit better there regardless if he's played at OLB his whole career, well my mistake on that. Gocong should not be a starter and I'm not sure why they would even think of starting him, he was mediocre in the 4-3, mediocre in the 3-4, why would he not be mediocre this time?

I suppose Roth is big enough to play DE but they've said they're looking for an FA DE opposite of Sheard(that could technically mean Roth but I doubt it). Some have said Ray Edwards as a possible guy.

I still think they should change Cribbs' position to be a situational RB/KR, or sign Bush if the price is right to take the strain off of Hillis.

@cantonlegend said:

maybe they didnt throw because they didnt have any WRs eh?

massaquoi isnt that good even tho i wanted him to be and robiskie is a wasted pick

cribbs is a QB and return man.....not a WR

little is the only decent WR on the team but he was a 3rd round prospect in this years draft and that isnt the kind of guy you look to lead your team in receptions.....the brownies still dont have a true #1 and its all going to fall on hillis' shoulders again. he is the entire offense with colt trying his best not to screw up in his first year as a real starter without any talent around him

wow, i can't believe that i agree with everything the dungeon master just said. "oh smitten me for ever doubting thee, thy dungeon master!"

@cantonlegend said:

its optimistic to expect him to be that good

i love the enthusiasm but dude was not even close to the 2nd best WR in the draft......you're dreaming

browns biggest need was WR especially since their head coach is trying to start a west coast offense in cleveland. to wait that long to get a true number one is almost stupid

i will agree that little has some talent but im not going to say that he is a true #1.....he may be in cleveland, but that talent already there is nothing to be proud of so assuming he is #1 isnt really going to impress people

IMO Little was certainly the second best WR in the draft. Dude is a beast, and not a "third round talent" like someone said. The only reason he slipped was because he didn't play last year due to a suspension. Jason Laconfora refered to him as possibly the second best WR as well (on NFL network during the draft) ... so I don't why you think it is so far fetched. At the end of the day Laconfora isn't the say all be all about football ... but I definitly value his opinion more then your opinion.

Even with Little though we still def. need to add an experianced WR to this team because behind him we don't have much. I believe MoMass or Robo could pan out to be a legit number 2 or 3 WR ... but I don't think both will pan out to be good pro's. I also wouldn't be shocked to see one get cut.

Also as far as Haggarty goes (I don't know who mentioned him) he was an Undrafted free agent who looked good, but got hurt. I don't think anyone has great expectations for him ... but you never know if he is healthy what he could add. He (aand Mitchell who was a sixth) would be a nice bonus, but I don't think anyone is expecting anything from either of them.

@clevelandmilidh said:

It's not that we didn't throw, we just didn't target receiver's. Mangini's philosophy was to expose the middle of the field with TE's and RB's, which is why Hillis and Watson were the leading receivers. As Rob Ryan says "thats documented" look it up. WR's were basically decoys and blockers.

I'm not saying Robo or MoMass are going to be great, but I do think there better and will be alot more effective than alot of people think.

So if Little was a 3rd round prospect after sitting out a year, does that make him a first round talent? Or is he still a 3rd round prospect if he played the entire year?

Remains to be seen how talented Little is- but it's production, not where you're drafted, and he did look impressive in that ESPN film clip. Mike Wallace from the Steelers look like third round talent? Marques Colston look like seventh round practice squad fodder?

@cantonlegend said:

maybe they didnt throw because they didnt have any WRs eh?

massaquoi isnt that good even tho i wanted him to be and robiskie is a wasted pick

cribbs is a QB and return man.....not a WR

little is the only decent WR on the team but he was a 3rd round prospect in this years draft and that isnt the kind of guy you look to lead your team in receptions.....the brownies still dont have a true #1 and its all going to fall on hillis' shoulders again. he is the entire offense with colt trying his best not to screw up in his first year as a real starter without any talent around him

It's not that we didn't throw, we just didn't target receiver's. Mangini's philosophy was to expose the middle of the field with TE's and RB's, which is why Hillis and Watson were the leading receivers. As Rob Ryan says "thats documented" look it up. WR's were basically decoys and blockers.

I'm not saying Robo or MoMass are going to be great, but I do think there better and will be alot more effective than alot of people think.

So if Little was a 3rd round prospect after sitting out a year, does that make him a first round talent? Or is he still a 3rd round prospect if he played the entire year?

@kentlife said:

We aren't running Mangini's run first offense next year. We are going to be passing a lot more, whether it's better or not.

thats not good news considering the talent(or lack of) at the WR and TE positions

there is a reason so many mocks had the brownies takin a WR with the first pick....its easily the most glaring weakness on the team right now....especially considering the new pass first offense

@cantonlegend said:

maybe they didnt throw because they didnt have any WRs eh?

massaquoi isnt that good even tho i wanted him to be and robiskie is a wasted pick

cribbs is a QB and return man.....not a WR

little is the only decent WR on the team but he was a 3rd round prospect in this years draft and that isnt the kind of guy you look to lead your team in receptions.....the brownies still dont have a true #1 and its all going to fall on hillis' shoulders again. he is the entire offense with colt trying his best not to screw up in his first year as a real starter without any talent around him

We aren't running Mangini's run first offense next year. We are going to be passing a lot more, whether it's better or not.

@clevelandmilidh said:

MoMass was the most targeted receiver on the Browns last year and was #85 most targeted in the league. That means almost every other team had 3 WR's targeted more ofter than our #1 receiver. Thats a result of the offensive scheme not the player, how can you catch a hundred balls if your only targeted 70 times? Lets see how these guys do after they get double to triple the targets they had last year and judge them after that. To me Robo, MoMass, Mitchell and now Little, alot of teams would love to have that. We just have to get them the ball.

maybe they didnt throw because they didnt have any WRs eh?

massaquoi isnt that good even tho i wanted him to be and robiskie is a wasted pick

cribbs is a QB and return man.....not a WR

little is the only decent WR on the team but he was a 3rd round prospect in this years draft and that isnt the kind of guy you look to lead your team in receptions.....the brownies still dont have a true #1 and its all going to fall on hillis' shoulders again. he is the entire offense with colt trying his best not to screw up in his first year as a real starter without any talent around him

@the-gipper said:

That begs the question: Are Trusnik and Roth 4-3 DE capable players, or will this be an attempt to fit an octagonal player into a hexagonal hole?

It might look similar but it just doesn't quite fit right, thus causing us to have a fit.

Maybe, maybe not. Roth at this point actually has good size for a DE in a 4-3 and if anything is starting to get too big to be a productive OLB in a 3-4, plus it is his true natural position which is where he played in college and high school. Trusnik was also a DE when he played in college and is the size Heckert personally likes in DE's and has the same 40 time as Sheard. He had an outstanding senior year at Ohio Northern (Div III I know) where he had 18 sacks. Whether he would be a good fit at DE is yet to be seen as you have stated and it would be left up to Juron.

@dawgpound3 said:

I think Colt will struggle very badly because of the good wide receivers we currently lack right now. If anyone wants to argue that, feel free to do, but don't come crying to me when the offense struggles again.

why would anyone come crying to you of all people.....u are marginally knowledgeable and a constantly being a negative nancy despite the fact you think u know what ur talking about.

so what ur in effect saying is colt is gonna struggle more this coming year than he did the last? despite the fact we have added some talent, got more experience under our young guys belts and a better system in place?

ur part of the old line of thinkers that believe FA can fix everything and money is a non-issue. as i look back at our recent history, signing old productive players sure has been a success for the cleveland browns hasn't it? so why not keep up whats working....signing long in the tooth vets that no one else wants anymore...beside dan snyder.

yup...we're gonna complain to the football genius...rotflmao

copter....