1 You usually have some very informative posts.

2 You will resurrect old threads that have revelance rateher than start a new one.

I wish more posted like you Aloy. You Shep and Wpb Some of the Elite on the board. Keep it up guys.

@earl34 said:

Just read that Tannenbaum picked Lowery, and Mangini responded by calling out Lowery in front of the team whenever he made a mistake. If true, that's a pretty crappy thing to do.

Lowery's said to have complained to folks back at home about how poorly Mangini was treating him. If he complained to his college teammates back at San Jose State, word of Mangini's alleged schmuckishness may have gotten to rising DE-DT prospect Jarron Gilbert.

I don't think that'd affect our draft plans, but it's something that could cause some awkwardness if we end up drafting Gilbert.

@vegasdogg said:

"A source close to Pioli said he headed into the Browns interview with serious reservations. Multiple league sources have pointed to squandered Browns draft picks over the past few years -- including the third, fifth and seventh in 2009. The team is headed for salary cap trouble after giving huge bonuses to free agents over the past several years, and the contracts of a number of players are up after 2009.

One league source noted that the roster is in bad shape after the reign of fired general manager Phil Savage, and that only one current defensive player -- Shaun Rogers -- would be good enough to start for the Ravens or Steelers. Another said neither linebacker Beau Bell nor Martin Rucker, two players the Browns traded up to select in the 2008, will be able to cut it in the NFL."

It's hard to disagree with any of that assessment. Building a team through free agency is shallow and short sighted. When you sign a player though free agency, you are, by definition, overpaying since you are generally the highest bidder. You can fill a whole that way, but you can't build a team that way.

The league source was correct about our talent on defense. We have a LB that led the league in pile jumping and a safety (#26) that's afraid to hit someone. Wimbley might be good enough to start for a few teams in the NFL (but not in our division). Not a pretty picture.

We have 2 QB's, a PK, P, Long Snapper, LT, DT and a TE. Wow.

The two worst teams in INT% (interception percentage for passes thrown) in the league were the Browns and the Jets. BUT, the Jets just missed the playoffs and had 9 wins.

I gotta believe if Favre had 1 or 2 less INT's down the stretch, Mangini would still be the Jets coach and taken them to the playoffs 2 out of his first 3 years in fairly tough division (unlike that pancake division Shannahan is in).

Add in the fact that next year is supposed to be the best year to hire a coach in decades with the availability of Cowher, Shannihan, Parcells, Asshole, Shottenheimer, and Dungy, a 1 year "show us what you've got" contract seems to make a lot of sense for Mangini.

Masters said:

Based on what I know about the cap, the recent contract with bonus haven't actually been that big, and only hurt if CLE actually kept every one of them, which they wouldn't. They have lots of outs to save the cap hit if they cut the guy.

Thanks for posting the link. I would have, but ye ol' cell phone can't do it.

Here's the part I was referring to:

A source close to Pioli said he headed into the Browns interview with serious reservations. Multiple league sources have pointed to squandered Browns draft picks over the past few years -- including the third, fifth and seventh in 2009. The team is headed for salary cap trouble after giving huge bonuses to free agents over the past several years, and the contracts of a number of players are up after 2009.

One league source noted that the roster is in bad shape after the reign of fired general manager Phil Savage, and that only one current defensive player -- Shaun Rogers -- would be good enough to start for the Ravens or Steelers. Another said neither linebacker Beau Bell nor Martin Rucker, two players the Browns traded up to select in the 2008, will be able to cut it in the NFL.

Hey Masters, any link to your point? I want to say I've read the same thing, but its been a while.

@earl34 said:

Good points. And according to PFW, it was Tannenbaum who refused to give Kendall an extension, not Mangini.

But their analysis of why Mangini was fired makes me even less enthusiastic about him becoming our coach:

In 2007, Mangini’s rigidity in X's and O's led to much of his team’s undoing. A staunch proponent of the 3-4 system he honed while working as an assistant under Bill Belichick in New England, Mangini lacked Belichick’s resourcefulness to change up the scheme when it wasn’t working.

In 2008, the problem was finding an appropriate offensive balance. At times, it seemed as though the Jets had too much confidence in their personnel, and other times it seemed they felt they needed to trick the opposition in order to move the ball. Certainly, offensive coordinator Brian Schottenheimer deserves much of the blame as well, but if there was one thing Mangini preached as head coach, it was that the buck stopped with him.

Throughout his entire tenure, his stoic — almost passive-aggressive — persona made for an often contentious relationship with his players, which was only exacerbated by the Jets’ hard-line stance when it came to negotiating player contracts. Even in instances when a lukewarm resolution was made, such as was the case with TE Chris Baker and WR Laveranues Coles, the player-coach bond had already been fractured.

Mangini may be a decent, even good coach, and Favre sure looks to be the real person to blame for their late-season collapse.

But the trade-off for getting Mangini isn't just that we don't get a McDaniels or a Jim Schwartz; it's that we lose out on a great personnel man in Pioli, something that we desperately need.

And if that's the case, going with the coach with poor interpersonal skills over a great personnel guy seems like a terrible idea.

@mcgi8nnis said:

Considering that Tannenbaum has no scouting or personnel experience and is a lawyer by training...I'd say that Mangini probably had more than 50% of the personnel say (good or bad). Just a thought.

@earl34 said:

Savage hired coaches that Crennel didn't want. Kokinis would be Mangini's choice especially since they are supposedly close. I don't see the same dynamic. Mangini definitely got a raw deal in NY. He was likely neither the genius nor the buffoon he was made out to be. He has a good track record with draft choices (Gholston notwithstanding). In three years, he drafted Mangold and Ferguson (Pro Bowlers). He drafted and developed Kerry Rhodes, Leon Washington and Darelle Revis. Dustin Keller has been a success and he was instrumental in getting Kris Jenkins and Thomas Jones on board with the Jets' program. Just because he isn't throwing stuff in the lockerroom and slamming his headset into the ground it doesn't mean he's "clueless". He's calm. Tony Dungy is calm. Belichick (like him or not) is calm. Tom Landry wasn't demonstrative. I think the NY media and fans were screaming too loudly for an owner who has a new stadium's PSLs to sell. Just my opinion. NY fans are full of baloney.

Was it the rat or the gm taanebaum

Aloysius said:

First, bringing up Bender reminds me of the drama Mangini caused with Pete Kendall in early '07. Unwilling to consider giving Kendall a long-term deal, Mangini ended up provoking a huge training camp distraction, one that ended in the Jets trading away Kendall for a Day Two pick. Mangini first put Bender in the LG spot...and he failed miserably. The whole left side of their line collapsed, with Ferguson having a terrible second season. Both of their QB's got beat up and rush-weary, resulting in a veteran QB losing the fans (Pennington) and a young QB not earning their support (Clemens).

Had they kept Kendall, I'm guessing their '07 offense would have been much better. They may have never even gotten in to the Favre sweepstakes.

Also, they may have been able to develop Bender as a future starter at their RT spot. Instead, they spent a ton of money on Faneca at LG & Woody at RT. And Bender ended up getting cut; he spent most of the year on the Patriots' practice squad, then was picked up by the Niners.

Brad Smith is another interesting example: after growing into the #3 receiver role last year, the Jets seemed more enamored with mimicking the Dolphins' success with the WildDawg than continuing that success at receiver. As a result, he didn't even have 100 receiving yards this year. He's becoming another Josh Cribbs: a great athlete with no real position on offense.

So while you may be right that they've drafted a lot of talent on Day Two, it seems like they're doing a poor job of developing said talent. Perhaps owner Woody Johnson took that into consideration when he fired Mangini & not the GM. The talent's there - both because of their drafts and their big spending spree last offseason - but Mangini couldn't get that team to the playoffs.

Can't say. I think that the Kendall thing was something that he learned from. Playing stuff like that out in the media is not his style. I see it sort of like the early Coughlin days with the Giants where he was the "disciplinarian-that-you-can't-please". I agree though that losing Kendall had serious repercussions. I don't think that they had a problem with Mangini's development of the talent. The impression I have is that they couldn't send this coach into the contract year as a lame duck all-the-while preparing to sell PSLs. They either needed to extend him or release him. They insist that it wasn't his management of the players. Tannenbaum has backtracked all over the place trying to avoid giving any good reason for firing him. Nonetheless, the telling thing to me about how the players feel is how readily they were ready to throw Favre under the bus after Mangini was gone. If that resentment was brewing, Mangini did a great job of keeping it in house.

My personal OPINION is that an 8-3 coach doesn't go from genius to idiot in five weeks if his QB doesn't start heaving up picks indiscriminately. Favre's rating over that stretch was horrible. He underthrew four wide open receivers downfield in Seattle and he threw three of the ugliest picks you'll ever see against the Dolphins. Just my opinion. It's not that simple obviously but I think it played a big part in the collapse. When they brought in Favre...Mangini was not too happy. This was a guy who hadn't participated in the offseason coming in in the 11th hour to pick up the offense and more importantly was a guy that no living coach, except perhaps Holmgren...would bench.

@earl34 said:

I agree about Harris too. Mangini/Tannenbaum's second day drafts are varied. In 2008, he did pick up Dwight Lowery who started for most of the season at CB. He faded a bit later in the year but he was sensational early on for a fourth rounder. Ainge is on IR. From the '07 draft, they picked up Chansi Stuckey in the 7th round who had several big catches and TDs this year. Jacob Bender is a 6th rounder who is still on the team. In their first draft ('06), Brad Smith was a 4th rounder and he was the third WR and special teams contributor. I'd say that's quite a bit of success on day 2. I'm not sure how to measure day 2 success though.

Thanks for the response. But I think it actually brings up some of my concerns about Mangini.

First, bringing up Bender reminds me of the drama Mangini caused with Pete Kendall in early '07. Unwilling to consider giving Kendall a long-term deal, Mangini ended up provoking a huge training camp distraction, one that ended in the Jets trading away Kendall for a Day Two pick. Mangini first put Bender in the LG spot...and he failed miserably. The whole left side of their line collapsed, with Ferguson having a terrible second season. Both of their QB's got beat up and rush-weary, resulting in a veteran QB losing the fans (Pennington) and a young QB not earning their support (Clemens).

Had they kept Kendall, I'm guessing their '07 offense would have been much better. They may have never even gotten into the Favre sweepstakes.

Also, they may have been able to develop Bender as a future starter at their RT spot. Instead, they spent a ton of money on Faneca at LG & Woody at RT. And Bender ended up getting cut; he spent most of the year on the Patriots' practice squad, then was picked up by the Niners.

Brad Smith is another interesting example: after growing into the #3 receiver role last year, the Jets seemed more interested in mimicking the Dolphins' success with the WildDawg than with continuing that success at receiver. As a result, he didn't even have 100 receiving yards this year. He's becoming another Josh Cribbs: a great athlete with no real position on offense.

So while you may be right that they've drafted a lot of talent on Day Two, it seems like they're doing a poor job of developing said talent. Perhaps owner Woody Johnson took that into consideration when he fired Mangini & not the GM. The talent's there - both because of their drafts and their big spending spree last offseason - but Mangini couldn't get that team to the playoffs.

At the end of the day, it comes down to who Lerner thinks has the most potential to help the team. If it's a coach who can motivate and scheme the team to win, then hire him first and then bring in a GM to get him the players he needs. If it's a GM who can put together a team that can dominate, then hire him and let him pick the guy coach his players. I don't see why one is necessarily better than the other.

Dennis

@vegasdogg said:

I have read that. But I have also read the opposite.

Based on what I know about the cap, the recent contract with bonus haven't actually been that big, and only hurt if CLE actually kept every one of them, which they wouldn't. They have lots of outs to save the cap hit if they cut the guy.

@rich4eagle said:

A source close to Pioli said he headed into the Browns interview with serious reservations. Multiple league sources have pointed to squandered Browns draft picks over the past few years -- including the third, fifth and seventh in 2009. The team is headed for salary cap trouble after giving huge bonuses to free agents over the past several years, and the contracts of a number of players are up after 2009.

One league source noted that the roster is in bad shape after the reign of fired general manager Phil Savage, and that only one current defensive player -- Shaun Rogers -- would be good enough to start for the Ravens or Steelers. Another said neither linebacker Beau Bell nor Martin Rucker, two players the Browns traded up to select in the 2008, will be able to cut it in the NFL.

L I N K

@oconrecon said:

Also paints a grim picture of the upcoming salary cap issues and how Phil put the next guy in a hole with the trading away of future draft picks.

Man I'd love to squeeze a 3rd round pick out of DA.

can you amplify on the salary cap issues............that is very very important

@oconrecon said:

Also paints a grim picture of the upcoming salary cap issues and how Phil put the next guy in a hole with the trading away of future draft picks.

Man I'd love to squeeze a 3rd round pick out of DA.

Squeezing would be exactly what the next GM would be doing. The market for DA is certainly an unknown at this point. It's hard to get a lot of new talent without draft picks because that's where championship teams are built.

Also paints a grim picture of the upcoming salary cap issues and how Phil put the next guy in a hole with the trading away of future draft picks.

Man I'd love to squeeze a 3rd round pick out of DA.

I agree about Harris too. Mangini/Tannenbaum's second day drafts are varied. In 2008, he did pick up Dwight Lowery who started for most of the season at CB. He faded a bit later in the year but he was sensational early on for a fourth rounder. Ainge is on IR. From the '07 draft, they picked up Chansi Stuckey in the 7th round who had several big catches and TDs this year. Jacob Bender is a 6th rounder who is still on the team. In their first draft ('06), Brad Smith was a 4th rounder and he was the third WR and special teams contributor. I'd say that's quite a bit of success on day 2. I'm not sure how to measure day 2 success though.

Re: Vilma and Robertson. My inlaws have season tix to the Jets and I was never impressed with Dewayne Robertson no matter what front they were in (3 or 4 DL). Vilma has done well in NO this year and I can't argue with that but I think that I saw him take himself out of more plays by sloppy pursuit and tackling than any other player on defense.

But I'll agree with you that he & GM Mike Tannenbaum have brought a lot of talent to NY. Though he struggled this year, ILB David Harris would be another guy to add to the list.

That said, have the Jets had any Day Two successes (other than Washington) since Mangini got there?

Plus, those who complained about our getting rid of guy who didn't fit the 3-4 should note how Mangini got rid of Vilma & Dewayne Robertson.

Savage hired coaches that Crennel didn't want. Kokinis would be Mangini's choice especially since they are supposedly close. I don't see the same dynamic. Mangini definitely got a raw deal in NY. He was likely neither the genius nor the buffoon he was made out to be. He has a good track record with draft choices (Gholston notwithstanding). In three years, he drafted Mangold and Ferguson (Pro Bowlers). He drafted and developed Kerry Rhodes, Leon Washington and Darelle Revis. Dustin Keller has been a success and he was instrumental in getting Kris Jenkins and Thomas Jones on board with the Jets' program. Just because he isn't throwing stuff in the lockerroom and slamming his headset into the ground it doesn't mean he's "clueless". He's calm. Tony Dungy is calm. Belichick (like him or not) is calm. Tom Landry wasn't demonstrative. I think the NY media and fans were screaming too loudly for an owner who has a new stadium's PSLs to sell. Just my opinion. NY fans are full of baloney.

@rich4eagle said:

Pot, I have the kettle on line 2 for you.

@rich4eagle said:

He is just a coffee fetcher for Fisher.

@ytownbrownsbacker said:

So, tell us all why he is a "Deadweight".

I have a feeling he is talking out his ass. As if Lerner interviewed TJ because he is a dumb shit, right?

@dencyguy said:

Dennis

My concern stems from the fact that we've already seen what happens when a GM does not hire the HC. Savage didn't hire RAC, but he did eventually take the power to hire the OC and DC away from RAC. That is not synergy, that is meddling. Micromanagement. If there is going to be a decisiion for HC, I would let the GM hire him. Also, if the philosophy of the GM and HC are not the same, then there will be disagreements regarding who to draft and for what positions.