the Huffington post, I'll go buy it. Honest. You have an agenda....

and you cherry pick your nonsense. But all your personal putdowns of

most anybody on this forum... who have stayed here... won't change anything.

Stop being outraged that other posters here won't agree with you.

On this particular one you're denying the difference between long term structural deficits and short term stimulus. It's really a bizarre position to take, since you can find economists from both sides of the political spectrum arguing for just that. But to you the basic concept is worth arguing. You're going to insist that all spending is the same, and all spending is permanent. Which, of course, is counter to even the present day reality, which is that billions in stimulus spending was approved and has since expired. Aid to the states - what you call "gifts to the unions" - was approved and has since expired. But your argument is that you shouldn't give this temporary stimulus because nothing is ever temporary.

You just have feelings and opinions. You don't have facts. You don't match them to reality.

@heckofajobbrownie said:

No, no, and no. You have that completely backward.

Doing something like changing the benefit formula for Social Security benefits would vastly outweigh the cost of temporary aid to the states. It's not even close.

You're living in your own (un)reality.

Actually the un real part is expecting that those temporary gifts to the unions would remain temporary. I can almost hear the caterwauling now when they expire!

Also who do you expect to step up and demand the social security system be overhauled the democrats? Because if the republicans attemp to do it you guys with demagogue the issue til the cows come home.

WSS

only blue states, to buy more Dem votes?

I don't know why you are even here, Heck. You can't talk about all that's wrong, and you only

want, it seems, to figure out how to get Steve to eat out of your hand.

I don't see it happening. You misjudge Steve, like most everything else you appraise.

Do you EVER man up and start being yourself?

Doing something like changing the benefit formula for Social Security benefits would vastly outweigh the cost of temporary aid to the states. It's not even close.

You're living in your own (un)reality.

@heckofajobbrownie said:

Aye aye aye.

Do you not see the difference between temporary aid to the states to prevent teachers and cops from being laid off and changing the benefit formula for Social Security to lower long term costs of the program? That'd be one example of a short term stimulus program vs. long term debt reduction. And those two are not at odds with each other.

One need not be a rocket scientist to realize that by dramatically increasing the debt to give a bribe to the unions (per your example) means more debt and more interest.

So even IF the cuts are mede to the entitlements (and there's no guarantee they'll even matcch the increased debt and interest) you'd be lucky to have only a small loss wwith the offset.

And that's iff the two parties can bit the bullet on that.

And I could list another 25 examples.

Even you know this stuff. You're not that dense.

Ball one.

WSS

Do you not see the difference between temporary aid to the states to prevent teachers and cops from being laid off and changing the benefit formula for Social Security to lower long term costs of the program? That'd be one example of a short term stimulus program vs. long term debt reduction. And those two are not at odds with each other.

And I could list another 25 examples.

Even you know this stuff. You're not that dense.

@heckofajobbrownie said:

That's not how it works. And that's not even addressing the difference between short term stimulus and long term debt reduction. Want to try again?

What's an example of short-term stimulus? What's an example of long-term debt reduction? They're two different things.

Sorry Heck but that's exactly how it works.

You try 1 old buddy.

What's the difference between borrowing money and paying it back?

WSS

"? But Steve, I still desperately want to avoid talking about what a disaster my precious president is, so let's

argue with some minor issue that I can blow up into a mountain and be boring and stupid as hell"

What's an example of short-term stimulus? What's an example of long-term debt reduction? They're two different things.

@heckofajobbrownie said:

That's my wish, too.

I just want some acknowledgment that you get what short term stimulus and long term debt reduction entails, and how the two things are not at odds. Do you get that?

No.

you can borrow money and live a lot better and pay it all back when the economy turns around.

Of course by then you owe a helluva lot more and what happens if the economy doesn't turn around like you'd hoped? Just like your little buddies protesting wall street. So, you borrowed a lot of money for a law degree hoping there'd be a crying need for 20,000,000 more lawyers today.

Wss

"whaaaaaaaaaaaaa I have to pay taxes and the family down the street doesn't just because their dad lost his job last year due to the econmy which was caused by corporate greed and corruption. Nevermind that they are stuggling to even buy food for their kids and they still pay a higher percentage of their income to the IRS than I do. I'll just sit here and ignore the fact that tax cuts for corporations won't add any jobs to the economy. I'm to greedy to realize that no one is going to hire someone to do a job that doesn't need done."

whiney spoiled brats.

"I wish I could persuade Steve to agree with me on stuff, then I might

know how to sway independents on my job. It's what I do..."sniff" "

I just want some acknowledgment that you get what short term stimulus and long term debt reduction entails, and how the two things are not at odds. Do you get that?

@heckofajobbrownie said:

I'm just wondering if you get that just about every major economist, left and right, is calling for some version of that right now - short term stimulus and long term debt reduction. That you think they're incompatible with one another is truly bizarre.

But this will take painful cuts and extra taxes, probably down the road when the economy is on sounder footing, so you will get your wish.

My wish?

Heh.

Actually you're assuming the economy will bounce back.

I hope so but I'm afraid this may be the new normal.

And you're correct. No one is going to lean in and take one for the team.

WSS

@westside-steve said:

Yes.

I could live with just about any painful cuts and extra taxes if I could be sure it went to reducing the debt.

I don't have any faith that that would ever be done.

I think that's a potential nightmare.

You don't I understand.

(Now....

Let me guess..._)

WSS

I'm just wondering if you get that just about every major economist, left and right, is calling for some version of that right now - short term stimulus and long term debt reduction. That you think they're incompatible with one another is truly bizarre.

But this will take painful cuts and extra taxes, probably down the road when the economy is on sounder footing, so you will get your wish.

@heckofajobbrownie said:

Are you saying that short term stimulus and long term debt reduction are at odds? Really?

If I'm missing your point, please let me know.

Yes.

I could live with just about any painful cuts and extra taxes if I could be sure it went to reducing the debt.

I don't have any faith that that would ever be done.

I think that's a potential nightmare.

You don't I understand.

(Now....

Let me guess..._)

WSS

is compounding our long term debt to horrific levels.

There IS NO long term debt reduction with this dirtbag president.

If I'm missing your point, please let me know.

@heckofajobbrownie said:

Yes, Steve. That's part of the point - to make things better in the short term. That's what you're trying to do. In order to help the economy recover faster. That's what Bush did in the last recession, back when Republicans believed in demand-side stimulus. But they're not being political here, only the people who are trying to help the economy recover. Got it.

You like to dismiss all policy as political in order to avoid arguing policy. This is a policy debate. I'm not arguing politics. If you disagree with the policy, you have to say why. And likening it to a novocaine shot doesn't really cut it.

Short term stimulus, long term debt reduction, tax reform. That's the game.

Seems like those two things are at odds.

Oh, right! That's because they are.

And of course it's political.

Otherwise your team would have done it two years ago with no hindrance and saved us all.

WSS

Long term gov growth and intervention into our daily lives.

So much debt, that Obamao won't support legimate tax reform.

Just raise them.

That's his plan - it is what he learned in college in Alinksi classes.

And Cloward-Piven is now being admitted on the left... as having a huge influence

on what is going on.

Told ya. Still deny it ?

@westside-steve said:

Well I guessed right. Pass this bill now.

And I'd say it'd make things look better in the short term.

Like novocaine in an injured knee or sawdust in the transmission.

Hey the bump only needs to last through the second week of November 2012.

WSS

Yes, Steve. That's part of the point - to make things better in the short term. That's what you're trying to do. In order to help the economy recover faster. That's what Bush did in the last recession, back when Republicans believed in demand-side stimulus. But they're not being political here, only the people who are trying to help the economy recover. Got it.

You like to dismiss all policy as political in order to avoid arguing policy. This is a policy debate. I'm not arguing politics. If you disagree with the policy, you have to say why. And likening it to a novocaine shot doesn't really cut it.

Short term stimulus, long term debt reduction, tax reform. That's the game.

@heckofajobbrownie said:

Infrastructure investments are a no brainer. Tax reform is a no brainer. Some aid to the states is a no brainer. Long term debt reduction is a no brainer. But none of this is going to happen. We're just going to sit here and pretend we can't do anything. Or we'll just do something small to say we did.

Well I guessed right. Pass this bill now.

And I'd say it'd make things look better in the short term.

Like novocaine in an injured knee or sawdust in the transmission.

Hey the bump only needs to last through the second week of November 2012.

WSS

*********************************************************

Nice classy post, Heck.

Now the followup question:

Why didn't the pres you voted for... do anything about any of those during his two years with complete Dem party control of Congress?

Bush had Dems in Congress in charge, too. Could be I'm just having too much work on the farm goin on, but I see a trend. And it isn't pretty.

And...

Who on the national presidential scene, do you think WILL tackle these problems?