@rich4eagle said:

Polamalu was the sixteenth pick is way different than the fifth pick and he was a Strong Safety on College which limits int's way more than being a free safety.

Okay, and your boy BB drafted a FB Tommy Vardell in the top 20. He drafted Craig Powell around the same area Pittsburgh drafted Polly because he couldn't have Kyle Brady. AND he drafted cornerback Antonio Langham who couldn't beat Dan Footman in a footrace. Langham ran a 4.6 forty as a cornerback and BB saw him as gotta have.

The OTHER first round pick of BB? Eric Turner, who couldn't resemble Taylor Mays any more than he did. If BB was in love with Turner's size and 40 time - what would make him change criteria on bigger, stronger and faster for the same position? I think Eric Turner was our only good 1st round of the BB era but you're insinuating that was absurd. Seems weird you adore BB all of a sudden because you usually complain about a coach that loses 4 of his 5 years with the franchise. What besides hindsight 20/20 made BB so special and dear to you and Ghoolie?

Rich, for someone that has such a problem with going TE in round 1 - Check out how many times BB went TE first in NE (Graham and Watson). Do you do that if you're getting it right the first time? I'm gonna say no. Furthermore, if you're drafting TEs first in NE all the time, why do you feel so compelled to yank those clowns for Mike Vrabel in the red zone?

In conclusion, if you're gonna argue HOW to draft like BB - you're suddenly telling me you want us to draft either a TE, the next Tommy Vardell or a Craig Powell clone in round 1. I'm saying at least draft Taylor Mays but something about an Eric Turner presence doesn't sit right with you because you corrected me. And shouldn't I just know there's a Tom Brady at the end of round 6 who played 2nd fiddle to the next freshman sensation out there? Sure I should because I'll have you and Ghoolie telling me how often that comes around. BB was winless in NE until Drew Bledsoe lacerated a kidney or spleen. Add that to only 1 winning season in Cleveland and I think the REAL football messiah in NE is a guy named Brady. BTW, no Tom Brady = no playoffs in NE last I checked.

- Tom F. (Sounds like it's time to see what we have in our guy named Brady, who averaged 30 points a start in his first 2 starts for a team that couldn't score an offensive TD throughout the final 6 weeks)

The ratbirds will meet there match next week. The Dolphins making the playoffs can be attributed to schedule strength and that Tom Brady went down.

@sony-reed said:

I think the best move on the Browns part though might be to trade down and get some extra picks because I don't see much difference from what will be available at #5 and what will be available at 10-15, I can't get all that excited about drafting a inside linebacker like Aaron Curry at #5 like some people want because I don't feel a inside linebacker is a difference maker with that early of a pick and at #5 I feel you have to draft a player thats a potential Pro Bowl player and only Taylor Mays, Crabtree and Sanchez fit that type of player to me.

As I mentioned other than Michael Crabtree and Sanchez I see no offensive player worthy of a #5 pick in this draft.

Thanks Sony, great post with great insight and I do indeed value your view and expertise. I need to look at Sanchez and Crabtree more. Sanchez was extremely impressive against Penn State. I just do not believe the Browns will draft a QB as the whole town is enamored with Quinn and you know my feelings about him. I will also reconsider my view on Mays because of your and Flugels input who is also a good football mind

Also, Corey Dillon 1) is on the list, 2) played in one of the Pat's 3 SB wins and 3) was a second round pick.

The facts only seem to be useful to you when they prove your point. This is why everyone loves debating with you.

At least you didn't ignore the thread as per usual.

@rich4eagle said:

I think I clearly pointed out who those 11 first round running backs were on the 12 playoff teams that elicited a huh? from you.

Now show me where you said second round pick...

BTW where did I say early first round pick??????????? you made that up all by yourself!

And the Colts win the guy who was the feature back all year was Addai

and on and on it goes............

Please do not embarrass intelligence by discounting the achievements in the 18 games it takes to get to the Super Bowl............and oh btw you forgot to give Jerome Bettis any credit for the Steelers getting to the Super Bowl

you post had a lot of data and indeed supported my premise............1st and second rounders dominate that truncated list

@rich4eagle said:

and very few without a stud RB

Stud doesn't necessarily mean early first round pick. Looking below, you'll see it's just as likely you'll win a Super Bowl if you have a Faulk than burn a high pick on a RB.

Disagree????

SB XLII: Ahmad Bradshaw (7th rounder) was the Giants' leading rusher in an RBBC with Brandon Jacobs (2nd day pick).

SB XLI: UDFA Dominic Rhodes was the leading rusher for the Colts in an RBBC w/ 1st round pick Joseph Addai.

SB XL: Steelers led by UDFA Willie Parker in an RBBC with someone else's 1st round pick Jerome Bettis.

SB XXXIX: Pats led by someone else's 2nd round pick Corey Dillon in a RBBC with 2nd rounder Kevin Faulk.

SB XXXVIII: Pats led by someone else's low first round pick/castoff Antowain Smith with 2nd rounder Kevin Faulk as his backup.

SB XXXVII: Bucs led by 4th round pick Michael Pittman and 1st round fullback Mike Allstott.

SB XXXVI: Pats again led by someone else's low first round pick/castoff Antowain Smith.

SB XXXV: Ravens led by top 5 overall pick Jamal Lewis.

SB XXXIV: Rams led by top 5 overall pick Marshall Faulk.

SB XXXIII: Broncos led by 6th round pick Terrell Davis.

SB XXXII: Broncos led again by 6th round pick Terrell Davis.

SB XXXI: Packers led by 5th round pick Dorsey Levens and 4th round pick Edgar Bennett.

SB XXX: Cowboys led by late 1st round pick Emmitt Smith.

SB XXIX: Niners led by 2nd round pick Ricky Watters.

SB XXVIII: Cowboys led by late 1st round pick Emmitt Smith.

SB XXVII: Cowboys led by late 1st round pick Emmitt Smith.

SB XXVI: Skins led by 10th round pick Earnest Byner.

SB XXV: Giants led by eighth overall pick Ottis Anderson.

Need I continue???

And of course all positions are important..........but there is relative importance

I only saw one team ever win the Bowl with crap for a QB

and very few without a stud RB

So again I emphasize those are the two key positons

Followed dominating pass rushers and playmaking WR's and intimidating LB's in no particular order...........

of course guys like Reed and Polamalu are exceptions at the DB position because they both are truly impact players at the DB position

bottom of the stack OL guys easiest to find and easiest to make effective

How about we just say the draft is important at all positions and move on?

I would say

Tomlinson

James

D. Williams

Stewart

R.Williams

Brown

Mendenhall

Johnson

Addai

McGahee

Peterson

I believe that adds up to eleven first round running backs on the twelve playoff teams

and please tell our guy Masters that having 11 first round OL guys out of 60 is not really an impressive stat...........supports the dime a dozen theory

@rich4eagle said:

Huh?

You make no sense and you're barking up the wrong tree, rich. Perhaps you should start with QB's, then.

Miami - Pennington, Mid Rd. 1

Indy - P Manning, #1 Overall

SD - Rivers, top 5 overall.

Tenn - Collins, Top 5 overall with another top 5er overall behind him.

Minny - Jackson, Rd. 2

Steelers - Ben, Round 1.

Panthers - Delhomme was a UDFA I think. Like Warner, an anomaly.

Balt - Flacco, Rd. 1

Phil - McNabb, top 5 overall.

Giants - E Manning, #1 overall.

Atlanta - Ryan, #3 overall this year I believe.

Arizona - Warner (UDFA?) with a 1st rounder waiting his turn.

@rich4eagle said:

Polamalu was the sixteenth pick is way different than the fifth pick and he was a Strong Safety on College which limits int's way more than being a free safety. And I do not know if he was a three year starter. Mays played free safety which is ideal for getting int's.....because there is no direction to him..........the free safety is free to make plays so I disagree with your premise they avoided throwing in his direction.......At Pittsburgh Polamalu is more a free safety than strong safety.

Using your int criteria Polamalu had 50% more int's in college than Mays a significant number at a position that is harder to get int's.

Further the fifth pick is way higher than the 16th pick which says Mays should be twice the player Polamalu is to go that high and must be a total disrupter on D. I would not rule out taking Crabtreee either. I just do not believe a team with no RB's and virtually no WR's picking five should be taking a safety with that pick. I would not take Mays with that pick unless the whole draft is void of offensive talent or a destructive pass rusher.

Rich if I was drafting and stayed at # 5 I would select Taylor Mays or if I am looking at this team for the long term and Sanchez the QB from USC is available at #5 I would select him and trade both Andersen and Quinn, I know I will upset many Browns fans here but I think Sanchez will be the next Dan Marino, I liked the drafting of Brady Quinn but what I saw from him in the 3 games I saw a replay of Charlie Frye with the dink and dunk passing and I truly believe Sanchez will be something special just my IMO.

I think the best move on the Browns part though might be to trade down and get some extra picks because I don't see much difference from what will be available at #5 and what will be available at 10-15, I can't get all that excited about drafting a inside linebacker like Aaron Curry at #5 like some people want because I don't feel a inside linebacker is a difference maker with that early of a pick and at #5 I feel you have to draft a player thats a potential Pro Bowl player and only Taylor Mays, Crabtree and Sanchez fit that type of player to me.

As I mentioned other than Michael Crabtree and Sanchez I see no offensive player worthy of a #5 pick in this draft.

I also was trying make a case that having great running backs leads to playoff teams and that first round backs usually become the best backs and most superstar backs come from the first round

The playoff teams this year bring out the fact huge..........like 11 first round backs on the 12 twelves

@rich4eagle said:

I was merely attempting to discuss why drafting a RB in the 1st round isn't necessarily a secret to success, as 9 of the top 20 rushers were first round picks this season, and the playoff RB's seemed to be a mixed bag of draft positions. What I am not trying to rationalize is the fact that you need a GOOD RB, regardless of his draft position, to be successful. And all the playoff teams do have that with a few exceptions (AZ).

And I apologize to LT2 and Addai (esp. to LT2, who is one of the all-time greats), but the two of them did a combined nada yesterday...

@sony-reed said:

Maybe Taylor Mays does not have many interceptions because teams don't throw in his direction

These are all college kids and people draft based on potential, Mays at 6'2...240 Lbs with 4.2 speed you don't find that in many players and shows the potential to be a difference maker either with a big hit, run stop or interception.

The top 2 running backs in this years draft class is Chris Wells and Knowshon Moreno and both guys would be a risk to take as high as #5, the only skill player worthy of a selection at #5 is Michael Crabtree and you only draft him if you plan on trading Braylon Edwards because you can't afford to have 2 wide receivers making close to 20 Million Dollars on the same team.

Rich tell us who you would draft with the #5 pick since you don't think Taylor Mays is worth the pick.

I will start with your last first........I have not decided whom to pick with the fifth pick but am leaning RB or WR if the right guy is there and worth it. Who would you pick?

Polamalu was the sixteenth pick is way different than the fifth pick and he was a Strong Safety on College which limits int's way more than being a free safety. And I do not know if he was a three year starter. Mays played free safety which is ideal for getting int's.....because there is no direction to him..........the free safety is free to make plays so I disagree with your premise they avoided throwing in his direction.......At Pittsburgh Polamalu is more a free safety than strong safety.

Using your int criteria Polamalu had 50% more int's in college than Mays a significant number at a position that is harder to get int's.

Further the fifth pick is way higher than the 16th pick which says Mays should be twice the player Polamalu is to go that high and must be a total disrupter on D. I would not rule out taking Crabtreee either. I just do not believe a team with no RB's and virtually no WR's picking five should be taking a safety with that pick. I would not take Mays with that pick unless the whole draft is void of offensive talent or a destructive pass rusher.

mz. said:

This is True...

First and foremost of importance to winning is a franchise QB and second of importance is a game breaker RB................both of which usually happen in round one and history bears that out..........

Your post was informative and factual as to where folks got drafted in the link..........even if you skewed the significance of Tomlinson to SD and Addai to Indy and discarded any value for Williams at Miami

@rich4eagle said:

So after your insulting post to me I did simple preliminary research into the question I asked you that you failed to answer

BEST I CAN TELL Mays has 4 INTS in his three years at USC and none this year............thus from my preliminary research I am not going to use such a high pick on a player who is not a game changer.........like Ed Reed and Troy Polamalu ARE

Further you seem to discount the value of RB's..........Miami has two high no 1 picks on their roster.,,,,,,,,,,Indy has a no 1 pick as their RB,,,,,,,,as does SD in Tomlinson,,,,,,,,,and Tenn has a one and two pick as a tandem.....Minny has a premier one stud pick we got a tackle......The Steelers have a no 1 pick RB........and the Panthers have TWO no 1 picks in the backfield and Baltimore has a one pick as well.........I am not sure where Westbrook got drafted you can fill that in........and yes indeed the Giants have zero one picks on their roster.......and you can fill in blanks about Atlanta.......but yes Arizona feature back is another one pick..........pretty impressive those one picks on playoff teams

seems to me playoff teams value RB's higher than Safeties unless you can provide similar data on safeties being one picks of teams

So my point is not about ARGUING with you it is about debating the merits of whom to use that high pick on which we have successfully blown now about six times on the last several years on players who are not playmakers........I find it amsuing board members insulting me about my views only to have them validated year after year........so let's debate open minded maybe you and others can gain insight instead of being ruffled by good data and opinions

it is about numbers and stats in the end and W's and L's..........my track record speaks for itself

I am open to Mays..........but a safety with four int's in three years is not my idea of a fourth pick in the whole draft

Our offense is devoid of talent...............and oh yeah you brought up NE using a first on TE's those picks were 31 and 32 respectively.......not number 6 which we did BIG DIFFERNCE.......

anyway we can discuss this and debate whom to draft or you can just get puffed up because my initial reaction is to challenge selecting Mays with that one pick

Rich, stats do not tell the entire story.......Troy Palamalu had only 6 interceptions during his 3 years at USC, so using your theory it would not have been smart for the Steelers to draft Palamalu because he only had 6 interceptions at USC

Maybe Taylor Mays does not have many interceptions because teams don't throw in his direction

These are all college kids and people draft based on potential, Mays at 6'2...240 Lbs with 4.2 speed you don't find that in many players and shows the potential to be a difference maker either with a big hit, run stop or interception.

The top 2 running backs in this years draft class is Chris Wells and Knowshon Moreno and both guys would be a risk to take as high as #5, the only skill player worthy of a selection at #5 is Michael Crabtree and you only draft him if you plan on trading Braylon Edwards because you can't afford to have 2 wide receivers making close to 20 Million Dollars on the same team.

Rich tell us who you would draft with the #5 pick since you don't think Taylor Mays is worth the pick.

That hit was not helmet to helmet, and was a weak flag. Notice PSU didn't go over the middle after that.

@rich4eagle said:

Miami - Brown is very nice, Williams hasn't really amounted to much outside of the yoga studio.

Indy - Addai hasn't proven able to carry the load.

SD - Won last night on the legs of a 4th round pick, not Tomlinson.

Tenn - No arguments here.

Minny - see Tenn

Steelers - Their #1 pick hasn't done anything. They rode a UDFA to success.

Panthers - see Tenn.

Balt - Someone else's #1 who is #3 on their depth chart.

Phil - Wesbrook was a 3rd round pick.

Giants - all late picks.

Atlanta - Turner was a 5th rounder.

Arizona - someone else's first round pick, but Edge was great in Indy, so no arguments (even though he is shot now).

As you can see, it's a crapshoot when drafting RB's.

I already crunched the numbers here.

@flugel said:

I didn't post this to argue with you. Right now, you're on a mission to argue that anything we do or consider is an error so there's no point.

If you saw Mays vrs Penn State - you have your answer. If not, I don't want to play this game.

We have TONS of needs but they always say in round 1 you take the best player available over need. Don't shoot the mailman.

Countless GOOD RBs came after round 1 like Steve Slaton, Ryan Powell, Maurice Jones-Drew, Frank Gore, Brian Westbrook, Michael Turner, Sammy Morris, Le'Ron McClain, Brandon Jacobs and Derrick Ward just off the top of my head. Somebody like Wilie Parker wasn't even drafted.

WRs like Marques Colston, Jerricho Cotchery, and Wes Welker were all day 2 draftees. Davone Bess was an ubdrafted free agent.

NE drafts TEs in the first round like Ben Watson and Daniel Graham si I'm sure you've stopped calling that stupid but I remember Bill Belichick wanting Kyle Brady for us and knee jerking for Craig Powell when he lost his mind in panic over the Jets stealing his thunder.

KW has been a good player based on what he has been through phsyically. I wouldn't be opposed to trying to trade him because people around the league see his perseverence, work ethic and recent Pro Bowl resume enough to see value in adding him.

As I've said, I think you're an intelligent person BUT when you're venting your frustration about this franchise - you're gonna be negative and arguementative no matter what the subject matter is.

We have SEVERAL needs but as I saw today a playmaker like Ed Reed can divert everyone's attention off the reality that Flacco only went 9 of 23 passing. I haven't seen too many 235 pound Freaks running 4.2s but Mays lodged the football loose on 2 different collisions so I saw what I needed to in the BIG Game. When you make those Big plays in the Big game - you get cred for having serious game.

If it was BB drafting a Safety - you'd change criteria like you do with the TE thing and call it the perfect move. And why? He's not employed by Lerner right? Come on - take off the battle armour if you want a sensible discussion.

- Tom F.

Geez Tom, you need to take a chill pill. IF you read my response to you I asked a question as to what makes Mays more than a banger...........that I already KNEW......I saw his cheapshot helmet to helmet hit that would have cost fifteen in the NFL...........and yes I know he is a banger,...........my position is clear........if I am going to use the first round fourth or fifth pick on a safety he better the complete package................and that means having massive instincts and ball hawking skills not just the ability to hit somebody hard........

So after your insulting post to me I did simple preliminary research into the question I asked you that you failed to answer

BEST I CAN TELL Mays has 4 INTS in his three years at USC and none this year............thus from my preliminary research I am not going to use such a high pick on a player who is not a game changer.........like Ed Reed and Troy Polamalu ARE

Further you seem to discount the value of RB's..........Miami has two high no 1 picks on their roster.,,,,,,,,,,Indy has a no 1 pick as their RB,,,,,,,,as does SD in Tomlinson,,,,,,,,,and Tenn has a one and two pick as a tandem.....Minny has a premier one stud pick we got a tackle......The Steelers have a no 1 pick RB........and the Panthers have TWO no 1 picks in the backfield and Baltimore has a one pick as well.........I am not sure where Westbrook got drafted you can fill that in........and yes indeed the Giants have zero one picks on their roster.......and you can fill in blanks about Atlanta.......but yes Arizona feature back is another one pick..........pretty impressive those one picks on playoff teams

seems to me playoff teams value RB's higher than Safeties unless you can provide similar data on safeties being one picks of teams

So my point is not about ARGUING with you it is about debating the merits of whom to use that high pick on which we have successfully blown now about six times on the last several years on players who are not playmakers........I find it amsuing board members insulting me about my views only to have them validated year after year........so let's debate open minded maybe you and others can gain insight instead of being ruffled by good data and opinions

it is about numbers and stats in the end and W's and L's..........my track record speaks for itself

I am open to Mays..........but a safety with four int's in three years is not my idea of a fourth pick in the whole draft

Our offense is devoid of talent...............and oh yeah you brought up NE using a first on TE's those picks were 31 and 32 respectively.......not number 6 which we did BIG DIFFERNCE.......

anyway we can discuss this and debate whom to draft or you can just get puffed up because my initial reaction is to challenge selecting Mays with that one pick

@flugel said:

- Tom F.

I do too. I believe fully that CLE is much better than their record showed, and the players are better than they performed. The record bouncing in CLE over the last 3 years screams to me of bad coaching.

Masters said:

Thanks Masters! I love our choices at #5 overall this year. I think we'll get a playmaker that makes a difference and we'll get some people back healthy to lessen the list of need to an extent.

- Tom F.

@furnier said:

Doug

HERE YOU GO..........