Watch NE at PIT from week 8, 10-30-2011.

It's the most masterful execution of WCO football that you will ever see.

Bruce Arians called 57 passing plays, mostly short stuff, setting up 21 running plays for 97 yards rushing at 4.6 Yards Per Carry.

PIT's Time of Possession was 39:22

Patriots: 20:38

Personally, I dislike Ben R and Bruce A, but they masterfully dissected the Patriots much like the Browns did last season by keeping Tom Brady off the field.

Are you saying that Pitt runs the WCO? That is not something that I have heard. Aren't there other "system" besides the WCO that teams run that can call for more shorter passing plays? I am not that knowledgeable.

CIN is notorious for their organizational problems as well.

The Raiders fired Jon Gruden.

The Raiders traded Gruden for Tampa Bay's 2002 and 2003 first-round draft picks, 2002 and 2004 second-round draft picks, and $8 million in cash

However, your use of the Raiders and the Bengals as examples for Cleveland's fuck-ups are perfect.

The Vikings let Tomlin go to Pitt, didn't they?

It's NFL culture to allow your coaches to advance.

All teams, always allow advancement interviews and allow their coaches to leave for advancement in the profession.

Speaking of Tomlin, Gruden, and Dungy. . . .

Tomlin wanted to follow Dungy to IND, in the same job he had at TB, as DB coach.

Gruden said, "no," and kept Tomlin under contract as DB coach.

If Dungy wanted Tomlin as DC, then Gruden would have either made Tomlin DC at Tampa or let him advance to DC at IND.

That's NFL culture.

Teams let their coaches advance in the profession.

It may also be the last year with Dick LeBeau. I understand he was thinking about calling it quits after last year.

Correct sir, both the OC and DC are on the final seasons of their contracts. The DC is expected to retire and the OC is expected to be non-renewed.

I do not believe Arians runs the WCO system. They won't go for anyone that doesn't have that system as their primary focus.

Watch NE at PIT from week 8, 10-30-2011.

It's the most masterful execution of WCO football that you will ever see.

Bruce Arians called 57 passing plays, mostly short stuff, setting up 21 running plays for 97 yards rushing at 4.6 Yards Per Carry.

PIT's Time of Possession was 39:22

Patriots: 20:38

Personally, I dislike Ben R and Bruce A, but they masterfully dissected the Patriots much like the Browns did last season by keeping Tom Brady off the field.

@dick-mellon said:

Bill Belichick,

Bill Cowher,

Ken Whisenhunt,

Bruce Arains . . . .

These guys collectively have 18 NFL / Conference championships between them and they all matriculated through the Cleveland Browns in one way or another. . . .

It's as though CLE is a coaching college. . . They "graduate" . . usually by getting fired, then they go on to phenomenal success, mostly in the AFC and against CLE.

Well, you have varying degrees of success there. And I suspect that if you look at each franchise they have probably had similar things going on. I mean the Bengals had Bill Walsh and Dick LeBeau slip through their fingers. The Jags let Tom Coughlin get away. The Raiders fired Jon Gruden. The Vikings let Tomlin go to Pitt, didn't they? I guess I could go on and on. The Giants lost Tom Landry. I believe Joe Gibbs was an assistant with San Diego. Hell, the Browns fired Forrest Gregg too and he went on to coach a SB. Tampa Bay let Dungy go, but that worked out because the following year Gruden won them a SB.

Yeh, yur right. . . They come and they go, but when they come through CLE, they seem to leave with something special that results in alotta rings for them and trophies for other teams.

But hey Browns fans, yur in luck coz it's the final season of Bruce Arains' non-renewed contract at PIT.

You can have him back. . .

Remember how he ruined Tim Couch?

Yeh, you can remember that but Holmgren doesn't know nothin' about that.

It may also be the last year with Dick LeBeau. I understand he was thinking about calling it quits after last year.

With Holmgren, Arians, and Shurmur, they could film a new Three Stooges movie.

I do not believe Arians runs the WCO system. They won't go for anyone that doesn't have that system as their primary focus.

@the-gipper said:

Coaches come and coaches go.

Bill Cowher,

Ken Whisenhunt,

Bruce Arains . . . .

These guys collectively have 18 NFL / Conference championships between them and they all matriculated through the Cleveland Browns in one way or another. . . .

It's as though CLE is a coaching college. . . They "graduate" . . usually by getting fired, then they go on to phenomenal success, mostly in the AFC and against CLE.

Yeh, yur right. . . They come and they go, but when they come through CLE, they seem to leave with something special that results in alotta rings for them and trophies for other teams.

But hey Browns fans, yur in luck coz it's the final season of Bruce Arains' non-renewed contract at PIT.

You can have him back. . .

Remember how he ruined Tim Couch?

Yeh, you can remember that but Holmgren doesn't know nothin' about that.

With Holmgren, Arians, and Shurmur, they could film a new Three Stooges movie.

Endymion said:

Gipper Wrote:

Modell was in control of the team and all decisions until after the 2000 Super Bowl. The Ravens took all the players and management staff from the Cleveland Browns at the time of the move. Ray "Stab" Lewis will be a hall of fame player. (Really, Stover is the only player you lament losing?) That 2000 defense is revered in the annuals of NFL history. I find it highly unlikely, the 2000 Ravens would've been substantially different if they were still located in Cleveland playing as the Browns. Modell stole your clubs first Super Bowl victory, plain and simple. It is likely, you would've had a very good management staff in place at the beginning of the decade and may still be a force in the AFC North, even had Lerner (not Biscotti) assumed management of the team following the 2000 season. Lerner may even have been a revered owner in cleveland if he had Modell to show him what to do (although that's likely the "revisionist" history you are crying about). While the Browns may have retained the name, history and colors of their former now current club, Baltimore stole your heart. Even the Steelers/Browns rivalry is not anywhere near where it once was, but the hatred still exists between Pittsburgh and your former love now titled the Ravens. Deny the facts as they may be.

Look, if you want to play Harry Turtledove and make up fiction about what the Alternative history of the Browns would have been....go ahead, have your fun. But claiming that it would have been the same here is there is simply the same as coming up with a "What if the South had won the Civil War" "What if Germany had won WWII" scenarios. That is all you are doing. What if the Browns hadn't "moved". The history would by no means be the same...and Modell was nothing but an El Cid character for for those years.

And the reason that the Steelers and the Ravens have this rivalry right now is simple: they have both been good, they have been vying for supremacy of the division, and that is all. It has nothing to do with whatever lineage the Ravens may have had with the Browns at one time.

@the-gipper said:

All this bullshit revisionist history is pure feckless. Owners come and owners go. Coaches come and coaches go.

Modell was in control of the team and all decisions until after the 2000 Super Bowl. The Ravens took all the players and management staff from the Cleveland Browns at the time of the move. Ray "Stab" Lewis will be a hall of fame player. (Really, Stover is the only player you lament losing?) That 2000 defense is revered in the annuals of NFL history. I find it highly unlikely, the 2000 Ravens would've been substantially different if they were still located in Cleveland playing as the Browns. Modell stole your clubs first Super Bowl victory, plain and simple. It is likely, you would've had a very good management staff in place at the beginning of the decade and may still be a force in the AFC North, even had Lerner (not Biscotti) assumed management of the team following the 2000 season. Lerner may even have been a revered owner in cleveland if he had Modell to show him what to do (although that's likely the "revisionist" history you are crying about). While the Browns may have retained the name, history and colors of their former now current club, Baltimore stole your heart. Even the Steelers/Browns rivalry is not anywhere near where it once was, but the hatred still exists between Pittsburgh and your former love now titled the Ravens. Deny the facts as they may be.

@booker said:

C'mon guys. I know of the technicalities that allow us to claim the history of the team that moved to Baltimore, but that technicality is disingenuous to all of us who consider ourselves Cleveland football fans.

We don't root for a team that has played professional football for 65 years. We root for a team that has been in the NFL for 13 and has done nothing but disappoint. We have acquired a form of Stockholm Syndrome when it comes to showing faith to this incarnation of the Browns.

Gipper, you have a lot of enthusiasm for this team. However, pulling the sheet over your eyes makes you look like a fool. I'm not going to tell you how to root for the Browns, but it has gotten to the point where I can only stomach going to one game a year to end up making the walk of shame up W 3rd with the 30,000 other fans who stuck it out all four quarters.

Maybe I'm just tilted. Tilted by the fact that the team I grew up watching and having moderate success moved to Baltimore. That team has all the history, not technically of course, and it kills me every single time I see them.

Look, just because you are fucking dead dumbass wrong is no reason to claim that I have had the wool pulled over my eyes.

What you fucking geniuses stupidly believe is that if Modell had'nt tried to move the Browns that the Browns would have had the exact history that the Ravens have had in Baltimore.

That is ludicrous and ignorant beyond belief. What would have happened?

First, if Modell had been forced to stay here, he would have probably gone bankrupt. He would have raped this franchise of everything it had.....and he probably still would have moved the team 3 years later....if he still owned it. And Cleveland would not have had the Browns franchise here at all.

The Ravens are successful because a Baltimore Businessman named Steve Biscotti came in and set that Ravens franchise right after Modell screwed it up beyond belief. Biscotti wasn't going to buy a Cleveland team, no matter how poorly run.

So, you say: but Modell would have been forced to sell the team? Yea? And who would have been his likely buyer? The same idiots we have now as owners. Al Lerner may very well have bought the team, and we would still have Randy as the owner.

All this bullshit revisionist history is pure feckless. Owners come and owners go. Coaches come and coaches go.

If you want to go be a fucking Ravens fans, then get the fuck out of here....and out of my fucking face....and quit calling yourself a Cleveland football fan.

@booker said:

No dude, these Zombie Browns have nothing to do with the once proud franchise that moved to Baltimore.

That is right. They have nothing to do with the franchise in Baltimore, because this franchise NEVER moved to Baltimore.

Do I have to recite the legalities about that fact to every ignoramous like you that can type?

We don't root for a team that has played professional football for 65 years. We root for a team that has been in the NFL for 13 and has done nothing but disappoint. We have acquired a form of Stockholm Syndrome when it comes to showing faith to this incarnation of the Browns.

Gipper, you have a lot of enthusiasm for this team. However, pulling the sheet over your eyes makes you look like a fool. I'm not going to tell you how to root for the Browns, but it has gotten to the point where I can only stomach going to one game a year to end up making the walk of shame up W 3rd with the 30,000 other fans who stuck it out all four quarters.

Maybe I'm just tilted. Tilted by the fact that the team I grew up watching and having moderate success moved to Baltimore. That team has all the history, not technically of course, and it kills me every single time I see them.

They were being facetious. These new Browns have nothing to do with the once storied franchise of Cleveland because of how awful they've been since the return.

Of course it's actually the same franchise, but it's like if Ferrari went away for a year and came back making Kia Rios, but claiming they were still Ferraris.

@the-gipper said:

Why are being so ignorant about this?

I'm not an expert on Browns history.

I was a Browns fan last year when they were fun to watch.

And I'm a Browns fan this Sunday as well for BAL at CLE.

I'm not sure how many of us there are in the world.

I have met other Browns / Steelers fans, so I know I'm not alone in the world.

@king-ghoolie-lives said:

And do you maintain that a couple who adopts a homeless child and grows to love him over the years is really never connected in any way to that child?

There is ONE and ONLY ONE INGREDIENT that decides if this team has anything to do with "the original" Browns, and I am going to tell you what it is, if you haven't figured it out already.

You go look at the tailgate parties........ You take a look at how much Stan, Ed and the others put into planning them. Take a look at the guys flying over from the UK, or travelling form all parts of the Country. YOu go look at the colors, banners, hats, car ornaments, cook outs, fans paying for tickets and buying over priced stadium food. You go look at some of the hardest working, most educated people you are likely to meet anywhere.

Look at all that, and then tell me again how this team isn't THEIR (OUR) team?

These people love the Browns. They live for football Sundays, and as much as they ache for the losing, they keep coming back optimistic and believing in the winning that will hopefully come soon..............

But you know what? You are right..........This Browns team has NOTHING to do with that shit pile that moved to Baltimore. This Browns team IS CONNECTED DIRECTLY BY BIRTHRIGHT to the original CLeveland Browns.

The team is loved by the same families and bloodlines, the game is played on the same exact ground, the colors are the smae, the name is the same, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, these people love the Cleveland Browns.

Sorry guy, but you are dead wrong. If this Browns team was NOT the real deal......... this team wouldn't be loved.

I can assure you, this team is loved!

Ghoolie gets it. Here, here. Yes, THIS Browns team IS the real deal. Right now, it is kind of a bad deal, but it is the real deal. One day, (hopefully before too long) it will end up again being a good deal. But it is the deal we have.

@booker said:

No dude, these Zombie Browns have nothing to do with the once proud franchise that moved to Baltimore.

The franchise didn't move to Baltimore. I mean, do any of you know anything about facts of history?

A new franchise was formed in Baltimore that Modell was given control of (and quickly lost control of). Some assets of the Browns were assigned to that franchise. Basically, just player contracts. Half of which never even played for the Ravens. The Browns franchise remained here.

The only thing of real importance that was taken to Baltimore was a mid-level front office executive at the time by the name of Ozzie Newsone. A year or so later, after being an underling for the Ravens for about a year, he was elevated to General Manager. He was the only thing of value that move from Cleveland to Baltimore. That and a decent kicker named Matt Stover.

Why are being so ignorant about this?

@booker said:

No dude, these Zombie Browns have nothing to do with the once proud franchise that moved to Baltimore.

Gosh, do we have to go through this crap yet again? The TEAM went to Baltimore, the FRANCHISE stayed in Cleveland. I'll save you the trouble of looking it up on the HOF Website if you don't believe me. Ratbird Facts

The Colts (and Unitas') records are where? Indianapolis if you don't know. Jim Brown's records are still right where he got them- in Cleveland.

@booker said:

No dude, these Zombie Browns have nothing to do with the once proud franchise that moved to Baltimore.

That franchise is still proud. We just aren't proud of them.

@the-gipper said:

Anything you say is subject to a credibility gap when you say the Browns have 13 years of franchise history. This is the Browns 62 season of play. (Math not your strong subject?)

No dude, these Zombie Browns have nothing to do with the once proud franchise that moved to Baltimore.

@dick-mellon said:

Take pride, Browns fans, coz this years team is not the worst in history, in spite of being poised to tie a shittyness record only accomplished twice in franchise history.

Yes, your dear Browns are gearing up to be swept by the Division, which has only occurred twice in 13 seasons of franchise history.

Even back in the early days when the Browns only won 2-3 games, you could at least take pride in knocking off PIT, CIN, or BAL once in a while.

Ahhhh, but not this year, as Holmgren and that No Name coach will tie the all-time record of 0-6 against the Division.

Disclaimer: I'm virtually always wrong with my predictions, so you can be assured that CLE will somehow steal a game from BAL or PIT.

Anything you say is subject to a credibility gap when you say the Browns have 13 years of franchise history. This is the Browns 62 season of play. (Math not your strong subject?)