@b86b said:

I think people are wanting the wrong Gruden.. I would steal Jay away from the Bungles, he has previous HC experience and winning experience at that. Plus it would hurt a division rival. If Haslem wants to hire a young HC to keep around for a while he fits the bill..

Not gonna happen. Even if Haslem wanted him, Gruden recently signed a 3 year extension with the Bengals after turning down HC jobs with 3 different teams. Plus, since he's still under contract, the Browns would have to ask permission from the Bengals to even interview him, and there's no way Mike Brown would let Gruden go to a division rival.

@b86b said:

I think people are wanting the wrong Gruden.. I would steal Jay away from the Bungles, he has previous HC experience and winning experience at that. Plus it would hurt a division rival. If Haslem wants to hire a young HC to keep around for a while he fits the bill..

That is a good call. He worked wonders with dalton last year.

Another o coordinator to put on that list.

Greg Roman of the 49ers. his play calling and play design is EXCELLENT. he gets awesome work out of the running game, and tight ends.....

Who ever is the head coach, needs to keep jauron at this point. They have been drafting for two years for the 4-3 and found some really nice pieces in sheard, and taylor, along with rubin.

If they keep shurmur, considering that haslam said he values consistency i wouldnt be upset. i think though he should have to give up his play calling.

@calfoxwc said:

Baloney. Shurmur is a second year coach. I love his drafting,

sorry. he's not in charge of drafting. never was.

thank god.

I have read the comments, but do you have a preference or opinion on WHO the next HC here may be? Why?

Just curious.

Mike

Cowher and Gruden were great in their time but that time has passed, they're done. Saban is somewhat intriguing because he was basically a failure in the NFL the first time and he might have some desire to prove that he can suceed on that level as well as dominating college, like Pete Carroll.

If I'm picking...Saban is a choice..but I want a young guy with some fire to prove that he's all that and willing to kick guys in the ass over and over to get them to perform. I want a young version of Cowher or Gruden but I don't want either of them at this point in their life.

how about David Shaw, the coach of stanford?

And about shurmur doing a better job and playing rookies...

Well he had to play someone, and this team is the second youngest in the league.

About him drafting, he didnt, that was all heckert.

And about his play calling. He sucks at it. Hes predictable and boring. Thats why in the eagles game, he ran the same run 15 times at least, and then ran a fricking pa pass to marecic. now, i dont have a problem with the play call itself, but when you run a play in PRACTICE, and it fails, and then try to run the same play with the same ROCK HANDED guy in a game, you dont deserve to be a play caller. I thought that is why they brought brad childress in......

Oh, and go browns.

@tour2ma said:

So the guy that built the FO and Staff that you are now thinking may be OK, needs to go?

Not seeing the logic there, mlk... To me it's a package deal...

I'll agree that the jury is still out, but...

- Fort's non-interception did not lose us game 1... and it was a tough chance... especially for a non-WR;

- punt coverage/ lane discipline is coaching and the lack of discipline gave Jones (who I agree looked ordinary in the return) the chance to make the play.

I just don't see the fire in Shurmur that I want in a HC... While Mangini did not show it either, with him I always had a feeling it was right there, under the surface.

yes.

if shurmur doesn't choke under the pressure of the cleveland media (that's like choking on air) and we pull outta a couple, 2/3 wins in the first half of the season. hey i'm alright with that.

at least last week's offense looked 300% better than any brian daboll offense i used to have to watch.

Not seeing the logic there, mlk... To me it's a package deal...

I'll agree that the jury is still out, but...

- Fort's non-interception did not lose us game 1... and it was a tough chance... especially for a non-WR;

- punt coverage/ lane discipline is coaching and the lack of discipline gave Jones (who I agree looked ordinary in the return) the chance to make the play.

I just don't see the fire in Shurmur that I want in a HC... While Mangini did not show it either, with him I always had a feeling it was right there, under the surface.

that being said if we would have won our first 2 games, which in my opinion we should have, i think we'd all be singing a different tune. i'm liking what i'm hearing from this guy, even though in the back of his mind he's gotta know he's coaching for his job ala eric mangini when fat assed holmgren was hired. if this team continues to show improvement and plays competitively each game i really doubt that the coaching is the problem. yes the false starts and lining up offsides i put on the coaches but they're not the ones that dropped the interception that would have had us starting the season at 1 and 0. they're not the ones who let a punk washed up corner return a punt for 81 fucking yards without laying a habd on the douche.

2 and 0 and we'd all be saying "the pieces are finally in place", "keep this unit together".

i'm starting to think the only one that needs to go is fatboy holmgren.

We've had coaches here in Cleveland who don't know how to coach up rookies. Remember?

Rookies never saw the light of day. Shurmur and the rest have been PLAYING their new rookies,

and they are coaching them up. That is COACHING, man. The Philly game was against a killer defense,

with a rough first game trying to see if the offense was ready to gel. It wasn't.

Second game - huge, huge improvement. And I do NOT see the play calling as suspect.

Remember, we used to have a team of veterans in earlier years, who played like they couldn't care less.

Now? This entire Browns team plays excited to be out there, and they play with a hotdamn desire to improve,

and become a playoff team.

Remember when even Cribbs commented on certain anonymous players who didn't care, and who were treated specially, and like

prima donnas?

Not any more. Like Canton Mike has said - it's a TEAM. Even a star like Joe Haden must remain in TEAM mode, or he gets booted out of a practice.

It isn't Shurmur. He isn't perfect, but I love the way this team plays like every play could win the game.

That means he should be given another year or two. I see great things from these Browns with the continued improvement.

Seriously? Playing rookies is the mark of a coach who knows football, and what the hell he's doing.

I remember Paul Brown videos showing him teaching football. And attitude.

answer: unemployed after 2-3 losing seasons.

@dab7291993 said:

I think the problems in the Philly game were more on the players on offense rather than the HC. Too many dropped passes by our WRs and frankly, Weeden played like garbage. And I'm not saying Shurmur hasn't made some head scratching mistakes. But to judge a guy after only 18 games and want to fire him is, in my opinion, rash. I mean, Haslam can fire him today, it's his prerogative. But all that would accomplish would be to undermine the stability of this organization yet again. We'd be starting all over again, with a new head coach who, odds are, will be in the exact situation of wanting to be fired by the fans in two years that Shurmur is in today.

In the Philadelphia game, at the end of the 1st half where we had a minute and some change to try and get the ball downfield he thought he could run out the clock and ended up giving the ball back to Philly with enough time to score. He gave our defense zero rest, while basically not even trying to convert on offense.

Then we got the ball with :14 and he told Weeden to take shots downfield? I don't want any coach who is inclined to make decisions like that..

@jbluhm86 said:

TOTALS, YEAR 3: (178-108), .622 win %[/b]

What these statistics show is that for the first two years of these coaches careers, they lost more than 50% of their games, with some of them not even winning a quarter of the played games. At this point, most of today's Browns fans would calling for their heads and pushing to completely blow up everything and start yet again from scratch. But, when given at least another season, the average win percentage for these coaches increased dramatically, to well over winning 50% of their games. Just imagine how many Superbowls, playoff appearances, Conference titles and division titles these teams would have lost out on if they had caved into pressure from their fans and shit-canned these coaches after only their second season, as many of the members on this board are wanting to happen to Pat Shurmur.

To further drive my point home, lets sharpen the focus to just the AFC North teams. For this, I compiled a list of the head coaches and their win-loss records and percentages from all the AFC North teams from 1999-2011. I also compared the accomplishments of the teams during those 13 seasons. The results were quite sobering:

AFC NORTH HEAD COACHING RECORDS, 1999-2011

Pittsburgh Steelers: (133-74-1, .642 win %) AFC North Championships: 5x, AFC Central Championships: 1x, Postseason Appearances: 8x, AFC Championships: 3x, Super Bowl Championships: 2x

Bill Cower (1999-2006): 78-49-1, .613, AFC North Championships: 2x, AFC Central Championships: 1x, Postseason appearances: 4x, AFC championships: 1x, Superbowls: 1x

Mike Tomlin (2007-Present): 55-25, .688, AFC North Championships: 3x, Postseason appearances: 4x, AFC Championships: 2x, Superbowls: 1x

Baltimore Ravens: (124-84, .596 win %) AFC North Championships: 3x, Postseason Appearances: 8x, AFC Championships: 1x, Super Bowl Championships: 1x

Brian Billick (1999-2007): 80-64, .556, AFC North Championships: 2x, Postseason appearances: 4x, AFC Championships: 1x, Superbowls: 1x

John Harbaugh (2008-Present): 44-20, .688, AFC North Championships: 1x, Postseason appearances: 4x

Cincinnati Bengals: (85-122-1, .411 win %) AFC North Championships: 2x, Postseason Appearances: 3x

Dick LeBeau (1999-2002): 16-48, .250

Marvin Lewis (2003-Present): 69-74-1, .483 AFC North Championships: 2, Postseason appearances: 3

Cleveland Browns: (68-140, .327 win %) Postseason Appearances: 1x

Chris Palmer (1999-2000 5-27, .156

Butch Davis (2001-2004): 24-34, .414, Postseason appearances: 1x

Terry Robiskie (2004 (Interm)): 1-5, .167

Romeo Crennel (2005-2008): 24-40, .375

Eric Mangini (2009-2010): 10-22, .313

Pat Shurmur (2011-Present): 4-12, .250

If I was Jimmy Haslam, for my money, I would hang on to Pat Shurmur. Has he made mistakes? Sure. Does he sometimes appear lost, or confused? Yes. But does that mean we should just throw in the towel on yet another coach after only 16 games and start all over again, or should we just take a step back, breathe, and let Shurmur develop and grow with his team? I say let the man do his job. You never know, odds are, if given the chance, he might become one of the greatest and most successful coaches this team has ever had.

I seriously doubt Shurmur has what it takes to be a successful HC in the NFL.

If you love stats- go post the records of NFL Head coaches that had lousy record their first couple of years- and continued to suck swampwater given multiple opportunities. Dave Shula, Jim Zorn, Denny Green, Mariucci anyone?

Good post.

Let's look a little at this. NO Coach can win without talent. We have really increased our talent level in the last 3 years, but it IS a very young talent base. They WILL & DO make many mistakes, but they ARE growing as a unit.

I am a huge Joe Haden Fan, but Shurmur showed me a LOT by removing Joe from a practice. It takes managerial strength to hold your BEST producers to the same standard as your LESSER producers & it must be that way if you are to have credibility with the entire TEAM, which is obviously larger than any individual. I know I'm in the minority here, but I believe Pat Shurmur can be a damn fine NFL Coach. I would like to see him grow here in Cleveland. If I'm wrong, go ahead & berate me for that, but not this year....it's simply not enough time. Keep in mind that these young men ARE playing hard. How often have we been able to say that since 1999?

Mike

Formerly Sane said:

...And then the organization IS NOT WILLING TO GIVE THE GUY THE TIME IT REQUIRES to take a franchise with zero foundation to competitiveness.

This is what I believe is our team's biggest flaw: stability at key positions. Especially at the head coach position. The Cleveland Browns' management, and to some extent the fans, do not allow the head coaches we bring in the time to properly mature and develop into a competitive coach along with the team they are building. New head coaches are not so different from rookie players in the fact that they are more likely to grow and adapt to the game when given multiple seasons to do so. When it comes to our team, we are stuck in a cycle of blowing things up and rebuilding from scratch every 2-3 years, and we never seem to get anywhere.

Just for shits and giggles, and because I have a moderate case of OCD, I compiled statistics from some of the most successful head coaches in NFL history, comparing their win-loss records from their first 2 years of being a head coach, and compared it to their win-loss records from their third year of being head coach, to see if my theory was correct. This is by no means a complete list, with every single head coach from the modern era, but if you want to find out about any head coach to compare with this list, their statistics are not that hard to find:

HEAD COACH - WIN/LOSS RECORD and PERCENTAGE FOR YEARS 1 & 2 - WIN/LOSS RECORD and PERCENTAGE FOR YEAR 3

1) Andy Reid: 16-16, .500, 11-5, .688

2) Marty Schottenheimer: 12-12, .500, 12-4, .750

3) Brian Billick: 20-12, .625, 10-6, .625

4) Jeff Fisher: 8-14, .364, 8-8, .500

5) Mike Shanahan: 8-12, .400, 8-8, .500

6) Dan Reeves: 12-13, .480, 9-7, .563

7) Mike Holmgren: 18-14, .563, 9-7, .563

Mike Ditka: 11-14, .440, 10-6, .625

9) Dick Vermeil: 9-19, .474, 9-7, .563

10) Tony Dungy: 16-16, .500, 8-8, .500

11) Bill Cowher: 20-12, .625, 12-4, .750

12) Tom Coughlin: 13-19, .406, 11-5, .688

13) Jimmy Johnson: 8-24, .250, 11-5, .688

14) Bill Parcells: 12-19-1, .391, 10-6, .625

15) Joe Gibbs, 16-9, .640, 14-2, .875

16) Bill Walsh: 8-24, .250, 13-3, .812

17) Chuck Noll: 6-22, .212, 6-8, .429

18) Bill Belichick: 13-19, .406, 7-9, .438

TOTALS, YEARS 1-2: (226-290-1), .438 win %

TOTALS, YEAR 3: (178-108), .622 win %

What these statistics show is that for the first two years of these coaches careers, they lost more than 50% of their games, with some of them not even winning a quarter of the played games. At this point, most of today's Browns fans would calling for their heads and pushing to completely blow up everything and start yet again from scratch. But, when given at least another season, the average win percentage for these coaches increased dramatically, to well over winning 50% of their games. Just imagine how many Superbowls, playoff appearances, Conference titles and division titles these teams would have lost out on if they had caved into pressure from their fans and shit-canned these coaches after only their second season, as many of the members on this board are wanting to happen to Pat Shurmur.

To further drive my point home, lets sharpen the focus to just the AFC North teams. For this, I compiled a list of the head coaches and their win-loss records and percentages from all the AFC North teams from 1999-2011. I also compared the accomplishments of the teams during those 13 seasons. The results were quite sobering:

AFC NORTH HEAD COACHING RECORDS, 1999-2011

Pittsburgh Steelers: (133-74-1, .642 win %) AFC North Championships: 5x, AFC Central Championships: 1x, Postseason Appearances: 8x, AFC Championships: 3x, Super Bowl Championships: 2x

Bill Cower (1999-2006): 78-49-1, .613, AFC North Championships: 2x, AFC Central Championships: 1x, Postseason appearances: 4x, AFC championships: 1x, Superbowls: 1x

Mike Tomlin (2007-Present): 55-25, .688, AFC North Championships: 3x, Postseason appearances: 4x, AFC Championships: 2x, Superbowls: 1x

Baltimore Ravens: (124-84, .596 win %) AFC North Championships: 3x, Postseason Appearances: 8x, AFC Championships: 1x, Super Bowl Championships: 1x

Brian Billick (1999-2007): 80-64, .556, AFC North Championships: 2x, Postseason appearances: 4x, AFC Championships: 1x, Superbowls: 1x

John Harbaugh (2008-Present): 44-20, .688, AFC North Championships: 1x, Postseason appearances: 4x

Cincinnati Bengals: (85-122-1, .411 win %) AFC North Championships: 2x, Postseason Appearances: 3x

Dick LeBeau (1999-2002): 16-48, .250

Marvin Lewis (2003-Present): 69-74-1, .483 AFC North Championships: 2, Postseason appearances: 3

Cleveland Browns: (68-140, .327 win %) Postseason Appearances: 1x

Chris Palmer (1999-2000 5-27, .156

Butch Davis (2001-2004): 24-34, .414, Postseason appearances: 1x

Terry Robiskie (2004 (Interm)): 1-5, .167

Romeo Crennel (2005-2008): 24-40, .375

Eric Mangini (2009-2010): 10-22, .313

Pat Shurmur (2011-Present): 4-12, .250

As you can see, despite having only two head coaches per team in the 13 seasons since Cleveland returned to the NFL, Pittsburgh, Baltimore and Cincinnati have managed to throughly outclass and outperform our team in almost every way possible. In the past 13 seasons, we've had SIX head coaches and all we have to show for it is one playoff appearance. Of course, many other factors including player talent and management must be factored into these numbers, but I believe that this conclusively shows the detrimental effect of blowing up our franchise and starting over with a new head coach every 2 or 3 seasons has on our team. It completely underminds the stability needed to produce championship caliber teams and leaves us with a laughing stock of a team every year.

If I was Jimmy Haslam, for my money, I would hang on to Pat Shurmur. Has he made mistakes? Sure. Does he sometimes appear lost, or confused? Yes. But does that mean we should just throw in the towel on yet another coach after only 16 games and start all over again, or should we just take a step back, breathe, and let Shurmur develop and grow with his team? I say let the man do his job. You never know, odds are, if given the chance, he might become one of the greatest and most successful coaches this team has ever had.

I just hate Shurmur, he has made our offense predictable and inept. Not that we were anything to write home about before we hired him in.

@daninnyc said:

I don't want to hijack this thread and make it about the media's affect on sports franchises, but I disagree. Here is an article about the media's impact on athletes' performances:

Media & Athletes

Also, it is common sense that the media affects public perception. It is as true in politics as it is in the NFL. If the media helps propagate a negative sentiment of the Browns, it not only can potentially affect the athletes' psyches, it can bring about changes in personnel. Major sponsors like Ford, The Cleveland Clinic, and AT&T are less likely to invest in a team with a negative image. Therefore, ownership groups definitely care about public perception. Just my $.02.

I agree, but the disgusting part is the number of so called "Fans" & others who will embarrass themselves by quoting the medias' ridiculous assertions as fact, then quoting the same writers and/or announcers at a later time. Some folks never learn. I prefer to draw my own conclusions & my response to all their speculation is, "We'll see.". The media has very little credibility with me.

Unfortunately, "perception IS reality", & the media (and politicians) are adept at creating the perception of their choice. Unfortunately, it has been negative far too often as it pertains to our Browns.

Mike

@the-gipper said:

I don't think any reporter has done so much as let out a cabbage fart that has ever affected the outcome of one of the Browns games. Nor has anything any of them said affected the "stability" of the Browns organization. Nope.

I don't want to hijack this thread and make it about the media's affect on sports franchises, but I disagree. Here is an article about the media's impact on athletes' performances:

Media & Athletes

Also, it is common sense that the media affects public perception. It is as true in politics as it is in the NFL. If the media helps propagate a negative sentiment of the Browns, it not only can potentially affect the athletes' psyches, it can bring about changes in personnel. Major sponsors like Ford, The Cleveland Clinic, and AT&T are less likely to invest in a team with a negative image. Therefore, ownership groups definitely care about public perception. Just my $.02.