http://www.mylife.com/c-2348606819

@the-gipper said:

Really? Sipe was benched? I don't recall that. That even looks worse for Sam if he benched Sipe in favor of McDonald. I mean, Sipe came back in '93 with a pretty darn good year.

Modell was enamored with McDonald, and after the rough 81 Season, when they got off to a bad start in 82, Modell had Sam throw McDonald in there.

Yes, Sipe rebounded for a nice '83 season, but Modell was still in love with McDonald so Sipe went to the USFL and McDonald layed an egg in 84 and got Sam fired and that started the Marty era and Bernie Kosar was landed in the off-season.

Zombo

Zombo said:

A couple points ... Sipe wasn't injured in 82, he was benched.

There is no doubt that overall the Schottenheimer era was much better than the Rutigliano era, I think the biggest difference was a much better defense in the mid-late 80's than the late 70's early 80's.

Zombo

Really? Sipe was benched? I don't recall that. That even looks worse for Sam if he benched Sipe in favor of McDonald. I mean, Sipe came back in '93 with a pretty darn good year.

@the-gipper said:

Well, again, but sorry, I don't know where and how Sam ever got the Browns to "greatness".

Sam and Sipe together took the Browns to exactly one single playoff game, that 1980 Red Right 88 game loss to the Raiders in which we all know what happened. 14-12 loss because Sipe could not find the blonde in the third row.

The only other playoff game Sam took the Browns to was at the end of the strike shortened 1982 season where the Browns were "allowed" in with a 4-5 record. Sipe had been hurt earlier that year and Paul McDonald had to play the last half of the season, including the playoff game, this time a blowout loss by 27-10 to those same Raiders.

Compare to Marty and Bernie...three AFC title game appearances. Twice coming thisclose to making the Super Bowl.

And I don't know how you figure that under Bernie the Browns were not a passing team. They were a more balanced team with better runners with Mack and Byner, but certainly BK threw the ball around plenty.

Here are their comparative careers:

Kosar

Year...games...yards...TDs

1985...10...1578...8

1986...16...3854...17

1987...12...3033...22

1988...9...1890...10

1989...16...3533...18

1990...13...2562...10

1991...16...3487...18

1992...7...1160...8

Sipe

Year...games...yard...TDs

1976...15...2113...17

1977...9...1233...9

1978...16...2906...21

1979...16...3793...28

1980...16...4132...30

1981...16...3876...17

1982...6...1064...4

1983...15...3566...26

Looking at this I would say yardage wise that things were pretty even between the two QBs.

Sipe does seem to hold a pretty big edge however on the number of TD passes he threw.

I think the main reason for that is that Kosar had Mack and Byner to run the ball in. While Sipe had the Pruitt's, I personally don't think combined that Mike and Greg Pruitt were quite the combo that Mack and Byner were.

Note, that is Sipe's and the Browns best year: 1980 Mike Pruitt had all of 6 rushing TDs and -0- receiving TDs, and Gregg Pruitt had -0- rush TDs but 5 receiving TDs.

In 1986 Mack had 10 rushing TDs, Byner had 2 rush and 2 receiving TDs.

But, again, bottom line is the Browns succeeded in the playoffs frequently under Kosar and Marty while under Sam they never went anywhere.

A couple points ... Sipe wasn't injured in 82, he was benched.

There is no doubt that overall the Schottenheimer era was much better than the Rutigliano era, I think the biggest difference was a much better defense in the mid-late 80's than the late 70's early 80's.

Zombo

@king-ghoolie-lives said:

I loved teh Sam quote where he said something to the effect " we move the ball by passing. Anything else is increasingly boring". His teams were exciting. I watched Marty and BErnie, year-by-year dilute what Sam installed, and fall further and further from greatness. I believe TOmlin has done this to the Steelers as well.

I digressed, but again, it is at least good to hear some emotion coming out of teh franchise for a change.

Randy Lerner was just plain creepy.

Well, again, but sorry, I don't know where and how Sam ever got the Browns to "greatness".

Sam and Sipe together took the Browns to exactly one single playoff game, that 1980 Red Right 88 game loss to the Raiders in which we all know what happened. 14-12 loss because Sipe could not find the blonde in the third row.

The only other playoff game Sam took the Browns to was at the end of the strike shortened 1982 season where the Browns were "allowed" in with a 4-5 record. Sipe had been hurt earlier that year and Paul McDonald had to play the last half of the season, including the playoff game, this time a blowout loss by 27-10 to those same Raiders.

Compare to Marty and Bernie...three AFC title game appearances. Twice coming thisclose to making the Super Bowl.

And I don't know how you figure that under Bernie the Browns were not a passing team. They were a more balanced team with better runners with Mack and Byner, but certainly BK threw the ball around plenty.

Here are their comparative careers:

Kosar

Year...games...yards...TDs

1985...10...1578...8

1986...16...3854...17

1987...12...3033...22

1988...9...1890...10

1989...16...3533...18

1990...13...2562...10

1991...16...3487...18

1992...7...1160...8

Sipe

Year...games...yard...TDs

1976...15...2113...17

1977...9...1233...9

1978...16...2906...21

1979...16...3793...28

1980...16...4132...30

1981...16...3876...17

1982...6...1064...4

1983...15...3566...26

Looking at this I would say yardage wise that things were pretty even between the two QBs.

Sipe does seem to hold a pretty big edge however on the number of TD passes he threw.

I think the main reason for that is that Kosar had Mack and Byner to run the ball in. While Sipe had the Pruitt's, I personally don't think combined that Mike and Greg Pruitt were quite the combo that Mack and Byner were.

Note, that is Sipe's and the Browns best year: 1980 Mike Pruitt had all of 6 rushing TDs and -0- receiving TDs, and Gregg Pruitt had -0- rush TDs but 5 receiving TDs.

In 1986 Mack had 10 rushing TDs, Byner had 2 rush and 2 receiving TDs.

But, again, bottom line is the Browns succeeded in the playoffs frequently under Kosar and Marty while under Sam they never went anywhere.

That's actually pretty interesting.

I agree about words and deeds, but so far we are seeing the deeds after the words. I have a feeling that is going to be the mode in Berea.

Under Lerner and Homie we got all kinds of words out of Homie but it became pretty clear he wasn't under fire from Lerner so he became pretty comfortable talking about things but not really expecting much behind that.

At least to this point, it is pretty clear Haslam isn't going to allow anybody on the team to become too comfortable if the deeds aren't apparent to at least some degree.

I like it.

was a welcome slap in the face. I don't need a coach to be bug-eyed, red faced, spit flying out

of his mouth crazy. Belichek is none of those things but it's pretty obvious that there is some

high voltage coursing through his veins.

Watching previous Browns administrations was like Invasion of the Body Snatchers.

Shurmer at a press conference was like watching an awkward 6th grader give an oral book

report in front of the class--I half expected him to burst into tears and run off the stage.

Show some damn fire--as Jack Lambert once said, "This is football, get excited! If you're not

excited than go play tennis."

@king-ghoolie-lives said:

Words and Deeds, Often not the same thing once the story is told. I'll wait and see.

Howver, the one fun and positive thing is at least we are hearing philosophies and what guys stand for. I liked Butch Davis for that reason, at least you knew the guy liked big, hard hitting players and believed a strong 4 man line was teh way to win on defense. He had it for a wee short time too, then it imploded.

The past Browns teams were so generic and blah it was hard to get any feel for the team. Rutigliano was the last coach to actually have a defined purpose.................. pass pass pass and then pass more.

I loved that guy.

Indeed, Horton talks a good game. (I refuse to insert the cliche "can he saunter the saunter or stroll the stroll or boogie the boogie or skip the skip or gallop the gallop or crawl the crawl or walk the walk")

Yes, lets see if he performs the deeds he says he wants to.

Though....sometimes Sam talked a bigger game than he delivered.

@king-ghoolie-lives said:

Words and Deeds, Often not the same thing once the story is told. I'll wait and see.

Howver, the one fun and positive thing is at least we are hearing philosophies and what guys stand for. I liked Butch Davis for that reason, at least you knew the guy liked big, hard hitting players and believed a strong 4 man line was teh way to win on defense. He had it for a wee short time too, then it imploded.

The past Browns teams were so generic and blah it was hard to get any feel for the team. Rutigliano was the last coach to actually have a defined purpose.................. pass pass pass and then pass more.

I loved that guy.

Lets make no mistake...Sam understood the importance of the run. But yeah,Sam was the man..I like what I heard overall concerning Horton. Very articulate and knows what he wants. Im still not sold on Gocong as an OLB but. I guess that remains to be seen.

I am IMPRESSED! "Big men who can run & little men who can hit"....gotta LOVE it. There was none of this "we need 350 lbs here or 275 lbs there" crap or who will fit where. This guy coaches FOOTBALL players to play AGGRESSIVELY!!!!!!

Being 66 years old, one of my long standing "bucket wish" items has been having an aggressive D in Cleveland.....THANK YOU Ray & Chud!!

Many thanks to Jimmy Haslam, who came here with a vision of winning, aggressive football in Cleveland.

As excited as many of us Fans are, I can't imagine how excited this Team is.

Mike

Both the defensive and offensive coaches talk about putting the players in the position where they can do their best, this is a relieved change from the garbage of "putting in a round peg in a square hole" or whatever.

@horn-of-lake-erie said:

This guy is hardcore and I'm liking it. The WCO and 4-3 represent the dinosaurs of NFL formations nowadays. Its about time we got some coaches that actually live in the present era of the NFL.

Base formation doesn't really matter, 4-3 has had a ton of success and always will, the base formation should be based on the current roster you have(which is the exact reason why Belichick switched to the 4-3 from the 3-4 recently).

Just like Horton said he said the defense will be a "multifront attacking defense".

I'm really looking forward to this team next year on both sides of the ball ... and we haven't drafted a player or signed a free agent yet.

Zombo