Perhaps a poorly worded law proposal...or a deliberate, slick and underhanded Undoing of the law that

prevents the use of the information?

Read on. I'll go with "slick and underhanded" ....

********************************************************

http://heritageaction.com/2013/04/toomey-schumer-gun-bill-contains-potential-caveat-to-gun-registry-prohibition/

****************************************************

That would stop NY? Or not. (referring to two posts I made on the abuses of information...)

Offhand, the commission kinda bothers me. What keeps it from becoming a political bunch of anti gun Obamao appointments for life,whatever?

Seems like it would be just an op to legitimize the left's agenda for more legislation later, while also being a Brady bill/Obamao/Feinstein rubber stamp.

As stated, otherwise, the bill sounds fine to me. Although, the chances of Jack PingPong being denied a sale of a gun, and arrested for trying,

or his house raided because there is another Jack PiingPong or three in the list of folks not allowed to own or buy guns....

(happened already, you know, my post)... that part "could" be used as an intimidation factor towards legit gun owners.

Sadly, it wouldn't have stopped these murders from happening that have happened, I don't think.

@heckofajobbrownie said:

Here's what Manchin and Toomey put out:

The Public Safety and Second Amendment Rights Protection Act,

Our bill does three major things: 1) expands the existing background check

system to cover commercial sales, including sales at gun shows and internet

sales; 2) strengthens the existing instant check system by encouraging states

to put all their available records into the National Instant Criminal

Background Check System (NICS); 3) establishes a National Commission on

Mass Violence to study in-depth all the causes of mass violence in our

country.

1. Leveling the playing field for gun sales:

• Under current law, if you buy a gun at a gun show from a licensed dealer, you

have to undergo a background check by that dealer. But you can go to a non-

dealer table at the gun show, or into the parking lot, and buy a gun without a

background check.

o Our bill ensures that anyone buying a gun at a gun show has to

undergo a background check by a licensed dealer.

• Under current law, if you buy a gun online interstate (from one state to

another), the gun must be shipped to a licensed dealer, you must go to that dealer

and get a background check before you purchase the gun. However, for intrastate

(in the same state) sales, no background check is required and you can sell the gun

to the person without ever meeting face-to-face.

o Our bill requires that the current system for interstate sales be

expanded to cover intrastate sales as well—so all purchasers buying

guns online must undergo a background check by a licensed dealer.

• As under current law, background checks are performed by licensed dealers,

and recordkeeping will not change—dealers will keep the records in bound books,

like they do now. The federal government cannot keep records.

• Our bill explicitly bans the federal government from creating a registry and

creates a new penalty for misusing records to create a registry—a felony

punishable by 15 years in prison.

• As under current law, temporary transfers do not require background checks,

so, for example, you can loan your hunting rifle to your buddy without any new

restrictions or requirements.

• As under current law, transfers between family, friends, and neighbors do not

require background checks. You can give or sell a gun to your brother, your

neighbor, your coworker without a background check. You can post a gun for sale

on the cork bulletin board at your church or your job without a background check.

• Our bill also fixes problems in current law that unfairly limit the Second

Amendment rights of law abiding gun owners by:

o Allowing interstate handgun sales from licensed dealers. Outdated

current law only allows interstate sales of rifles and shotguns. This will

bring more sales into the background check system.

o Allowing active military to buy firearms in their home states and the

state in which they are stationed. Current law restricts them to

purchasing only from their duty station.

o Allowing dealer-to-dealer sales at gun shows taking place in a state in

which they are not a resident. Currently these sales are only permitted

for dealers from the same state in which the gun show is being held.

o Protecting sellers from lawsuits if the buyer is cleared through the

expanded background checks system and the weapon is subsequently

used in a crime. This is the same treatment gun dealers receive now.

o Authorizing the use of a state concealed carry permit that has been

issued within the last five years in lieu of a background check when

purchasing a firearm from a dealer because background checks are

required to receive conceal carry permits.

2. Getting all the names of prohibited purchasers into the background check

system

• There are serious problems currently with states not putting records into the

NICS system. One tragic example: records on the Virginia Tech shooter that

would have put him on the prohibited purchasers list had not been entered into the

system.

• Our bill encourages states to provide all their available records to NICS by

eliminating unnecessary responsibilities for states and directing future grant

money towards creating systems to send records to NICS. The bill will also reduce

federal funds to states that do not comply.

• Provides additional Second Amendment protections to our veterans.

• Requires that if a background check at a gun show does not result in a

definitive response from NICS within 48 hours, the sale may proceed. After four

years, when the NICS improvements are completed, the background check would

be required to clear in 24 hours. Current law is three business days.

3. Establishes a National Commission on Mass Violence

• Creates a commission of non-elected experts in their fields who will

study the causes of mass violence in the United States, looking at all

aspects of the problem, including mental health, guns, school safety and

portrayals of violence in the media. This broad approach is absolutely

necessary to truly address our culture of violence.

WHAT THE BILL WILL NOT DO

The bill will not, in any way, shape, or form infringe upon anyone’s Second

Amendment rights to keep and bear arms.

The bill will not take away anyone’s guns.

The bill will not ban any type of firearm.

The bill will not ban or restrict the use of any kind of bullet or any size clip or

magazine.

The bill will not create a national registry; in fact, it explicitly prohibits it.

surprisingly no reactionary measures were added into this.

I actually like this part

• Our bill explicitly bans the federal government from creating a registry and

creates a new penalty for misusing records to create a registry—a felony

punishable by 15 years in prison.

It puts a very clear limit on what the gov can do with the information. strengthening 2a rights and limiting future misuse of information.

But I will reserve final judgement until I see the entire bill.

The Public Safety and Second Amendment Rights Protection Act,

Our bill does three major things: 1) expands the existing background check

system to cover commercial sales, including sales at gun shows and internet

sales; 2) strengthens the existing instant check system by encouraging states

to put all their available records into the National Instant Criminal

Background Check System (NICS); 3) establishes a National Commission on

Mass Violence to study in-depth all the causes of mass violence in our

country.

1. Leveling the playing field for gun sales:

• Under current law, if you buy a gun at a gun show from a licensed dealer, you

have to undergo a background check by that dealer. But you can go to a non-

dealer table at the gun show, or into the parking lot, and buy a gun without a

background check.

Our bill ensures that anyone buying a gun at a gun show has to

undergo a background check by a licensed dealer.

• Under current law, if you buy a gun online interstate (from one state to

another), the gun must be shipped to a licensed dealer, you must go to that dealer

and get a background check before you purchase the gun. However, for intrastate

(in the same state) sales, no background check is required and you can sell the gun

to the person without ever meeting face-to-face.

Our bill requires that the current system for interstate sales be

expanded to cover intrastate sales as well—so all purchasers buying

guns online must undergo a background check by a licensed dealer.

• As under current law, background checks are performed by licensed dealers,

and recordkeeping will not change—dealers will keep the records in bound books,

like they do now. The federal government cannot keep records.

• Our bill explicitly bans the federal government from creating a registry and

creates a new penalty for misusing records to create a registry—a felony

punishable by 15 years in prison.

• As under current law, temporary transfers do not require background checks,

so, for example, you can loan your hunting rifle to your buddy without any new

restrictions or requirements.

• As under current law, transfers between family, friends, and neighbors do not

require background checks. You can give or sell a gun to your brother, your

neighbor, your coworker without a background check. You can post a gun for sale

on the cork bulletin board at your church or your job without a background check.

• Our bill also fixes problems in current law that unfairly limit the Second

Amendment rights of law abiding gun owners by:

- Allowing interstate handgun sales from licensed dealers. Outdated

current law only allows interstate sales of rifles and shotguns. This will

bring more sales into the background check system.

- Allowing active military to buy firearms in their home states and the

state in which they are stationed. Current law restricts them to

purchasing only from their duty station.

- Allowing dealer-to-dealer sales at gun shows taking place in a state in

which they are not a resident. Currently these sales are only permitted

for dealers from the same state in which the gun show is being held.

o Protecting sellers from lawsuits if the buyer is cleared through the

expanded background checks system and the weapon is subsequently

used in a crime. This is the same treatment gun dealers receive now.

o Authorizing the use of a state concealed carry permit that has been

issued within the last five years in lieu of a background check when

purchasing a firearm from a dealer because background checks are

required to receive conceal carry permits.

2. Getting all the names of prohibited purchasers into the background check

system

• There are serious problems currently with states not putting records into the

NICS system. One tragic example: records on the Virginia Tech shooter that

would have put him on the prohibited purchasers list had not been entered into the

system.

• Our bill encourages states to provide all their available records to NICS by

eliminating unnecessary responsibilities for states and directing future grant

money towards creating systems to send records to NICS. The bill will also reduce

federal funds to states that do not comply.

• Provides additional Second Amendment protections to our veterans.

• Requires that if a background check at a gun show does not result in a

definitive response from NICS within 48 hours, the sale may proceed. After four

years, when the NICS improvements are completed, the background check would

be required to clear in 24 hours. Current law is three business days.

3. Establishes a National Commission on Mass Violence

• Creates a commission of non-elected experts in their fields who will

study the causes of mass violence in the United States, looking at all

aspects of the problem, including mental health, guns, school safety and

portrayals of violence in the media. This broad approach is absolutely

necessary to truly address our culture of violence.

WHAT THE BILL WILL NOT DO

The bill will not, in any way, shape, or form infringe upon anyone’s Second

Amendment rights to keep and bear arms.

The bill will not take away anyone’s guns.

The bill will not ban any type of firearm.

The bill will not ban or restrict the use of any kind of bullet or any size clip or

magazine.

The bill will not create a national registry; in fact, it explicitly prohibits it.

Nice home defense weapon!

@diehardbrownsfan said:

I'm for a lifetime restriction on any violent felon owning a firearm. Problem is, they don't give a rats ass about the law, and will buy one off the street.

Some of them will, yes. But not all of them.

"Since 1998 the F.B.I. has rejected more than a million would-be sales, and when state-level rejections are factored in the number of denials is closer to two million — usually because the would-be buyers are convicted felons, or fugitives from justice, or mentally ill, among other reasons. How many of those rejected buyers were able buy guns without background checks, from private sellers or over the Internet, is difficult to say, in part because restrictions imposed by Congress make it difficult for law enforcement officials to track firearms sales."

The Senate on Thursday ended a GOP filibuster on a new gun control bill, clearing the way for debate to begin on a hugely emotional issue that has dominated headlines since the tragic December shooting in Newtown, Conn.

The vote was 68-31.

As to your question, yes, I'd be in favor of denying a category of violent felons the right to purchase a firearm, especially those who had used guns in the commission of a crime. In my mind, this category would include things like rape, domestic abuse, attempted murder and the like, and not something like simple assault. Just like many states do now, after all. This isn't something new. This is something that is being extended to other gun purchases.

And yes, would be in favor of enforcing those too, obviously.

@heckofajobbrownie said:

Is there anyone in here who wouldn't pass a background check for whatever reason?

Frankly my friend it doesn't seem to me you would.

From what I gather you favor some pretty narrow restrictions.

Only violent felons and straight jacket wearing lunatics.

I can't imagine that each and every one of us couldn't think of a handful of friends that one would think should not have a weapon.

And are you in favor of denying a basic right to someone who has served his time? Yes or no is okay with me.

Unfortunately the best you can hope to get given those liberal constrictions is a piece of window dressing.

And politicians can plants and Crow about how hard they work to protect the American people.

Show a better question would be not who's in favor of background checks but who's in favor of enforcing?

WSS

********************************************************

Now that you mention it - sure. But it's illegal to mass assemble a database of all gun purchasers and owners.

Manually looking up licenses across the board - doesn't worry me as a possibility though.

Maybe it should.... ?

@nunboy said:

The NRA is a pro 2a group left or right does not matter (plenty of southern dems will tell you as much), it just happens to be that the right lean pro 2a. It is hardly a deflection to note that guns are not responsible for the actions of a few insane individuals and that mental health played a huge part in all of this. and then to say that the NRA would be opposed to any mental health reform because they are republicans because they happen to agree with the R's on the 2a.

you threw all of the information into a pile built a ramp and Evil Knieveled the whole fucking thing.

You made me laugh and that's rare around here. Well done, but its quite true.

@the-cysko-kid said:

It's just a deflection by them. They're a right wing organization and when and if mental health reform ever comes up you can bet your bottom dollar the right will fight it with all their might.

The NRA is a pro 2a group left or right does not matter (plenty of southern dems will tell you as much), it just happens to be that the right lean pro 2a. It is hardly a deflection to note that guns are not responsible for the actions of a few insane individuals and that mental health played a huge part in all of this. and then to say that the NRA would be opposed to any mental health reform because they are republicans because they happen to agree with the R's on the 2a.

you threw all of the information into a pile built a ramp and Evil Knieveled the whole fucking thing.

@legacy-fan said:

If I may-

I think what he meant is that the NRA would see any type of mental health reform as a means to keep guns out of people's hands so they would fight that. I'm inclined to agree. (Jump in Cysko if I mis-spoke on your behalf)

You were pretty close actually.

Nun, do you think the right in general or the NRA is going to really support any sort of plan to reform mental health? This is a serious question now. They say they want mental health reform but the type of sweeping mental health reforms it would take to make any sort of dent in the homicide rate (no matter how the homicides were committed) would

A: be expensive as hell. The right has shown a reluctance to support spending money on social welfare projects.

And

B: is highly likely to be a catalyst for keeping guns away from a lot more people than right now.

In short the NRA is using mental health reform to take the heat off of guns. Whether that's appropriate or not is up to your interpretation, but really its nearly impossible and would end up costing the good ol American taxpayer a mint.

@nunboy said:

One hell of a leap you just took there.

If I may-

I think what he meant is that the NRA would see any type of mental health reform as a means to keep guns out of people's hands so they would fight that. I'm inclined to agree. (Jump in Cysko if I mis-spoke on your behalf)

@the-cysko-kid said:

It's just a deflection by them. They're a right wing organization and when and if mental health reform ever comes up you can bet your bottom dollar the right will fight it with all their might.

Agreed.

I'd prefer to let the medical community lead that charge.

@the-cysko-kid said:

It's just a deflection by them. They're a right wing organization and when and if mental health reform ever comes up you can bet your bottom dollar the right will fight it with all their might.

One hell of a leap you just took there.

@legacy-fan said:

Is the NRA the organization you want overhauling mental health?

No thanks.

They can keep defending my right to own and use a firearm though.

It's just a deflection by them. They're a right wing organization and when and if mental health reform ever comes up you can bet your bottom dollar the right will fight it with all their might.

@the-cysko-kid said:

Id love to hear the NRAs plan for overhauling the mental health system and exactly how they plan to define and identify the mentally ill, and their proposal for what to do with those people.

They've pointed a lot of fingers at mental health but haven't offered any sort of solution.

Is the NRA the organization you want overhauling mental health?

No thanks.

They can keep defending my right to own and use a firearm though.

@heckofajobbrownie said:

Okay, some details coming out, and the original story doesn't have it all straight: the record of the checks will be kept by licensed gun dealers, but "The new bill would expand checks to nearly every gun transaction except for those between relatives" does not seem to be true. It seems like there are lots of private gun sales that won't need checks, creating a loophole big enough to drive a truck through: "The amendment to the guns legislation already proposed in the Senate would not cover private transactions between individuals, unless there was advertising or an online service involved."

So, a step forward, but a very small one.

This was one of my suggestions several months ago when Cysko & I were going back & forth. Except I wanted online transactions/advertisements included in the BGC's. the online thing keeps people in remote areas from falling victim to price gouging. So I think it should still be a viable means of commerce, but should be included in the BgC's.

@calfoxwc said:

As I understand it, this bill, Pat Toomey and the other guy, are working on, is just background checks by anybody who sells at a

gun show.

There was something else, but I didn't catch what it was, got a phone call...

It -won't- interfere with families' heirlooms being passed to sons and daughters, etc.

I'm fine with that.

BTW, it is a mistake to say the NRA does not support background checks. They don't support universal background checks- because

that is only possible with a gun registration database, etc etc.

The safeguard against abuse of that information, is to require that information to not be tracked or kept after whatever months. That prevents

it from becoming a gigantic personal information database of gun owners, etc etc etc. With safeguards in place, go ahead and expand

background checks to all sellers at gun shows. But eventually, the extremist anti gunners push it way, way past that. Even Biden and Feinstein

have openly admitted it's a toe in the door. Too bad.

you do know that authorities can find credit scores and histories from your drivers license...

doesnt seem like much of a stretch for the same authorities to enter gun purchaser data to it as well..

thereby making it a permanent record?