The Browns franchise did move.

NO, NO, Fuck NO

I still remember the Baltimore Browns logo behind Modell at the press conference announcing the move.

That don't mean shit. That was just Modell's proposal.

At the end of the day the city of Cleveland kept all the history of the Browns and were granted a new franchise to replace the one Modell took to Baltimore.

Again, NO, NO Fuck NO. The NFL created the new Ravens franchise, and left the Browns franchise intact. These are documented facts. History that you cannont change.

You are not Harry Turtledove. The South did not win the Civil War, Hitler did not win WWII. Don't try to change history.

Modell signed what was necessary to avoid being bogged down in a protracted legal battle.

The "protracted" legal battle was waged. It was done. Modell LOST, fyi. The Browns were legally obligated to stay in Cleveland for another 3 years.

There may have been a deferral of the legal battle for those 3 years. Then Modell MAY have been granted the right to move after those 3 years....if the owners approved. By then, however, he would have probably been bankrupt....and he would have done everything in his power to fuck us, sure, perhaps. (But I believe the NFL would have stepped in to remedy that situation. It didn't come to that....because Model agreed to allow the Browns franchise to stay here, and to accept new ownership of a Baltimore franchise...just like I have said.

You can call it move something different, you can pass laws or court rulings to call it something else.

I call it what it is, not what you want it to be. Not even what I want it to be.

But at the end of the day, the Browns franchise relocated to Baltimore.

Why are you being an obtuse dick on this matter. No one agrees with you....not the Baltimore Ravens, not the Cleveland Browns, not the cities of Cleveland and Baltimore, not the states of Ohio and Maryland or the US Federal Government. Not the National Football League, not the other 30 owners of the NFL, not Dan Rooney or any associated with the Steelers. NO ONE of any authority.

The heart of our rivalry (at least from Pittsburgh's point of view) has transferred from Pittsburgh to Baltimore.

What you did was form a new rivalry with a new AFC North opponent. That rivalry is based on the fact that those two teams have been the good teams in the division and have vied for the last decade or so for division supremacy. That is natural, but it had nothing to do with any carryover from the Browns/Steelers rivalry.

If the Browns hadn't sucked so badly all these years under the Lerner ownership it would have been a different story. Had the promise of respectibility made by Carmen Policy et al been fullfilled there would have been no talk like what you say now.

But, the way I see it....the Ravens/Steelers rivalry this year will be one to determine who stays out of the division basement.

IP = Intellectual Property

I disagree.

It doesn't matter if you disagree. This is a factual issue, not an opinion issue. Factually and legally the Browns franchise didn't move.

When a new league franchise is started that franchise typically gets the first draft pick as well as picking up a few players from other existing teams (can't recall the name of the veteran draft at the moment). Modell moved the Browns franchise (as he retained all the existing players still under a contract when the team was the Browns). Had the Browns went on hiatus and Modell started a new franchise, all the players would've become free-agents.

Not true at all. I suspect you are not a lawyer so you probably are not aware of this, but Law School, Contracts 101: the beneficiary of a contractual term May assign their rights to a contract to a third party. The Browns rights to those player contracts were assigned to the new Ravens franchise. The Browns right, title, and interest to those draft choices were assigned to the Ravens, since, after all, they were not going to be using them. Just like you can sign over the title of your car or a house, one company can sign over the title interest in any kind of tangible or intangible property to anyother company. The Ravens, as the assignee of those contractual and property interests had every right to enforce the provisions of those contracts. Think of it simply as a wholesale trade of players etc....because that, in essence, is what it was.

Teams that move cities and change names, rarely keep the same colors, logos of their previous franchises.

Some franchises that move do change cities, names, colors, logos. See all those guys in question #1. Teams can change names and not change cities. See the Jets/Titans, or Bullets/Wizards

(Personally, I don't think any team should keep the names/logos, when they switch cities). The IP of the Browns is probably a first for the NFL, but it's not enough of an argument to say that is not a valid answer to the question.

Not sure what you mean by IP, but, yes, it was a first for the NFL to create a new franchise as a result of a "move" controversy, and to award that new franchise to an existing owner of another, continuing franchise. Though, maybe it was not so unique. Remember, in the early 70s Carrol Rosenbloom and Robert Irsay traded franchises straight up essentially. So shifting Modell's ownership to another team would not have been the first time such a thing was done.

For that matter, which one of those teams still promotes/displays their history in a former incarnation? It might make for a nice little aside in a historical video, but not for much else. Previous city history is also unimportant when a team moves to a new city (whether they keep the old name or assume a new one). The residents of city, really only care about the historical achievements of their team in their city. Further, training facilities, offices and stadiums never leave their physical locations (so I don't understand that argument). Lastly, the average/lesser paid middle-class worker tends to stay in his current location with family roots, as it's just too expensive to move and a job paying similar wages is typically available locally.

The Browns franchise NOT moving goes quite beyond semantics. In a true sense, the Browns merely "deactivated" from field play for a few years, but in all other matters it still was a viable, operating franchise.

Modell left for the new Baltimore franchise....along with a few of his front office staff, and some player contracts were assigned to that new franchise, but that was almost all that happened.

Aside from the "intellectual property" that remained with the Browns (name, records, colors, etc) nearly all of the physical property that belonged to the Browns remained as well. That includes obviously the Berea training facilities and offices, but also, equipment, training gear etc. While downsized because a few people left for Baltimore and because a few retired, there was a full working staff at the Browns facilities. Maintenance men, equipment men, sales and promotional people, clerical staff, etc. were employed there by "The Cleveland Browns Trust". While most of these people got their paychecks from the NFL office who was the overseer, they worked for the Cleveland Browns.

I call this Vacation Trivia because I am doing just that Saturday...going on vacation. So you will have a whole week or more to mull this over. Here are your questions:

Final Answers:

1. Of the current 32 NFL teams, there are 5 that at one time were located in a different city AND had a different name. Name those 5 teams

Washington Redskins fka Boston Braves

Tennessee Titans fka Houston Oilers

Kansas City Chiefs fka Dallas Texans

Chicago Bears fka Decatur Staleys

Detroit Lions fka Portsmouth Spartans

2. What does this list of teams represent, exclusively:

Green Bay Packers...13

Chicago Bears...9

Cleveland Browns...8

NY Giants...7

Pittsburgh Steelers...6

Teams that have won 6 or more titles in their history

3. What does this list of teams represent, exclusively:

Dallas Cowboys

Denver Broncos

New England Patriots

Pittsburgh Steelers

San Francisco 49ers

The only teams to appear in 6 or more Super Bowls.

4. What does this list of teams, in this precise order represent:

A. NY Giants...31

B. Dallas Cowboys...30

C1. Cleveland Browns...28

C2. Green Bay Packers...28

D1. St. Louis Rams...27

D2. Pittsburgh Steelers...27

D3. Minnesota Vikings...27

Teams with the most postseason appearances in their history. The number beside them is the team's total.

5. The Arizona/St. Louis/Chicago Cardinals are one of only 2 "original" NFL teams left from the inaugural 1920 NFL season. In that franchises history who has been their winningest Head Coach?

Ken Whisenhunt

6. The lowest total for the career passing yards leader of any of the 32NFL franchises is the sum of 14,686 yards. Name this franchise...and the QB if you can.

The Chicago Bears and Sid Luckman

7. Which team's career pass receiving yard is the lowest of any the 32 franchises with ony 5059 yards? Name the team, and the receiver if you can.

The Chicago Bears and Johhny Morris

I suspect with Jay Cutler and the likes of Brandon Marshall these records will not stand long.

8. Which colleges alumni have scored the most TDs in NFL history?

Notre Dame 1687 TD (next are USC 1653, Miami 1565, Ohio St. 1519, LSU 1321)

9. Three colleges have 40 or more active NFL players (as of the end of last season). Which three?

USC 41, Miami Fla 41, LSU 40

10. Name the 5 players that have scored the most TDs in NFL history.

Jerry Rice 208

Emmit Smith 175

LaDanian Tomlinson 162

Randy Moss 157

Terrell Owens 156

11. The following NFL players: Buckets Goldenberg, Kink Richards, Shipwreck Kelly each shared the NFL league lead in a particular category one year. Which category?

These guys, with the flambouyant names each tied for scoring the most TDs in the NFL in 1933 with 7 each.

12. What does this list of names represent: Ben Davis, Don Pool, Don Phelps, Ken Konz, Travis Benjamin, Derrick Alexander, Gerald McNeil, Tom Colella, Ken Carpenter, Mark Carrier, Brian Brennan, Josh Cribbs, Dennis Northcutt, Leroy Kelly, Bobby Mitchell, Eric Metcalf.

These are all the Browns players who have returned a punt for a Touchdown in Browns history.

Bonus: New franchises Jacksonville Jags/Carolina Panthers/Houston Texans have never played to a tie in their histories (but, the Ravens have). One other "older" franchise has also never had a tie in its history. Which team?

Seattle Seahawks.

For question #1 above

1. Tennesse Titans/Houston Oilers (already provided)

2. Kansas City Chiefs/Dallas Texans (already provided)

3. Baltimore Ravens/Cleveland Browns

4. Chicago Bears/Decatur Staleys

5. Washington Redskins/Boston Braves

All correct except Browns/Ravens. The Browns franchise never moved. There is one other.

Teams that moved that didn't change names (sorry needed this list get my answers straight):

1. Arizona Cardinals/St. Louis Cardinals/Chicago Cardinals

2. St. Louis Rams/LA Rams/Cleveland Rams

3. Oakland Raiders/LA Raiders/Oakland Raiders

4. Indianapolis Colts/Baltimore Colts

There is actually another in this category: LA/SD Chargers. And you could say the Boston/New England Patriots sorta, but not quite.

Question #2:

Teams with the most football "championships" and I think it's from most to least (but I'm not sure about how many the Giants have pre-Super Bowl era).

@the-gipper said:

I call this Vacation Trivia because I am doing just that Saturday...going on vacation. So you will have a whole week or more to mull this over. Here are your questions:

1. Of the current 32 NFL teams, there are 5 that at one time were located in a different city AND had a different name. Name those 5 teams

2. What does this list of teams represent, exclusively:

Green Bay Packers

Chicago Bears

Cleveland Browns

NY Giants

Pittsburgh Steelers

All have coaches that made the Hall of Fame

While that is true, that is not exclusive to this list

3. What does this list of teams represent, exclusively:

Dallas Cowboys

Denver Broncos

New England Patriots

Pittsburgh Steelers

San Francisco 49ers

Most Super Bowl appearances

Check

4. What does this list of teams, in this precise order represent:

A. NY Giants

B. Dallas Cowboys

C1. Cleveland Browns

C2. Green Bay Packers

D1. St. Louis Rams

D2. Pittsburgh Steelers

D3. Minnesota Vikings

5. The Arizona/St. Louis/Chicago Cardinals are one of only 2 "original" NFL teams left from the inaugural 1920 NFL season. In that franchises history who has been their winningest Head Coach?

Don Coryell

Oddly, no.

6. The lowest total for the career passing yards leader of any of the 32NFL franchises is the sum of 14,686 yards. Name this franchise...and the QB if you can.

Chicago Bears/Jim McMahon

Right team, wrong QB

7. Which team's career pass receiving yard is the lowest of any the 32 franchises with ony 5059 yards? Name the team, and the receiver if you can.

Houston Oilers/Tennessee Titans- Kenny Burrow

NO

8. Which colleges alumni have scored the most TDs in NFL history?

USC

NO

9. Three colleges have 40 or more active NFL players (as of the end of last season). Which three?

Ohio State, Florida State, Texas

None of these are correct

10. Name the 5 players that have scored the most TDs in NFL history.

Jerry Rice, Jim Brown, Emmitt Smith, TO, Tony Dorsett

Rice, Smith, TO correct. Not JB or TD

11. The following NFL players: Buckets Goldenberg, Kink Richards, Shipwreck Kelly each shared the NFL league lead in a particular category one year. Which category?

12. What does this list of names represent: Ben Davis, Don Pool, Don Phelps, Ken Konz, Travis Benjamin, Derrick Alexander, Gerald McNeil, Tom Colella, Ken Carpenter, Mark Carrier, Brian Brennan, Josh Cribbs, Dennis Northcutt, Leroy Kelly, Bobby Mitchell, Eric Metcalf.

Punt returners for the Browns

Hmm, right, but actually a bit more than that.

Bonus: New franchises Jacksonville Jags/Carolina Panthers/Houston Texans have never played to a tie in their histories (but, the Ravens have). One other "older" franchise has also never had a tie in its history. Which team?

Seahawks

Check

2. What does this list of teams represent, exclusively:

Green Bay Packers

Chicago Bears

Cleveland Browns

NY Giants

Pittsburgh Steelers

Most Hall of Fame members?

I call this Vacation Trivia because I am doing just that Saturday...going on vacation. So you will have a whole week or more to mull this over. Here are your questions:

1. Of the current 32 NFL teams, there are 5 that at one time were located in a different city AND had a different name. Name those 5 teams

2. What does this list of teams represent, exclusively:

Green Bay Packers

Chicago Bears

Cleveland Browns

NY Giants

Pittsburgh Steelers

All have coaches that made the Hall of Fame

3. What does this list of teams represent, exclusively:

Dallas Cowboys

Denver Broncos

New England Patriots

Pittsburgh Steelers

San Francisco 49ers

Most Super Bowl appearances

4. What does this list of teams, in this precise order represent:

A. NY Giants

B. Dallas Cowboys

C1. Cleveland Browns

C2. Green Bay Packers

D1. St. Louis Rams

D2. Pittsburgh Steelers

D3. Minnesota Vikings

5. The Arizona/St. Louis/Chicago Cardinals are one of only 2 "original" NFL teams left from the inaugural 1920 NFL season. In that franchises history who has been their winningest Head Coach?

Don Coryell

6. The lowest total for the career passing yards leader of any of the 32NFL franchises is the sum of 14,686 yards. Name this franchise...and the QB if you can.

Chicago Bears/Jim McMahon

7. Which team's career pass receiving yard is the lowest of any the 32 franchises with ony 5059 yards? Name the team, and the receiver if you can.

Houston Oilers/Tennessee Titans- Kenny Burrow

8. Which colleges alumni have scored the most TDs in NFL history?

USC

9. Three colleges have 40 or more active NFL players (as of the end of last season). Which three?

Ohio State, Florida State, Texas

10. Name the 5 players that have scored the most TDs in NFL history.

Jerry Rice, Jim Brown, Emmitt Smith, TO, Tony Dorsett

11. The following NFL players: Buckets Goldenberg, Kink Richards, Shipwreck Kelly each shared the NFL league lead in a particular category one year. Which category?

12. What does this list of names represent: Ben Davis, Don Pool, Don Phelps, Ken Konz, Travis Benjamin, Derrick Alexander, Gerald McNeil, Tom Colella, Ken Carpenter, Mark Carrier, Brian Brennan, Josh Cribbs, Dennis Northcutt, Leroy Kelly, Bobby Mitchell, Eric Metcalf.

Punt returners for the Browns

Bonus: New franchises Jacksonville Jags/Carolina Panthers/Houston Texans have never played to a tie in their histories (but, the Ravens have). One other "older" franchise has also never had a tie in its history. Which team?

Seahawks

1. Kc chiefs / Dallas Texans / Dayton triangles

@the-gipper said:

I call this Vacation Trivia because I am doing just that Saturday...going on vacation. So you will have a whole week or more to mull this over. Here are your questions:

1. Of the current 32 NFL teams, there are 5 that at one time were located in a different city AND had a different name. Name those 5 teams

Cleveland rams/browns

Baltimore colts/ravens

Raiders Oakland/LA

None of these are correct. Perhaps you misunderstood the question. I will give one example: the Tennessee Titans franchise were once the Houston Oilers. Now you only need 4 more.

(Rams/Browns were never the same franchise...same with Colts/Ravens. Colts don't count because though they changed cities they still remain The Colts. And a team like the New York Titans who became the Jets don't count because they stayed in NY.)

2. What does this list of teams represent, exclusively:

Green Bay Packers

Chicago Bears

Cleveland Browns

NY Giants

Pittsburgh Steelers

The black & blue division NO

3. What does this list of teams represent, exclusively:

Dallas Cowboys

Denver Broncos

New England Patriots

Pittsburgh Steelers

San Francisco 49ers

4. What does this list of teams, in this precise order represent:

A. NY Giants

B. Dallas Cowboys

C1. Cleveland Browns

C2. Green Bay Packers

D1. St. Louis Rams

D2. Pittsburgh Steelers

D3. Minnesota Vikings

5. The Arizona/St. Louis/Chicago Cardinals are one of only 2 "original" NFL teams left from the inaugural 1920 NFL season. In that franchises history who has been their winningest Head Coach?

George Halas....no, Halas was coach of the Chicago Bears

6. The lowest total for the career passing yards leader of any of the 32NFL franchises is the sum of 14,686 yards. Name this franchise...and the QB if you can.

San Diego and Dan Fouts No. Fouts had way way more passing yards than that.

7. Which team's career pass receiving yard is the lowest of any the 32 franchises with ony 5059 yards? Name the team, and the receiver if you can.

8. Which colleges alumni have scored the most TDs in NFL history?

9. Three colleges have 40 or more active NFL players (as of the end of last season). Which three?

Ohio State, USC and Alabama...only USC is correct

10. Name the 5 players that have scored the most TDs in NFL history.

Jim Brown,Jerry rice,Michael Irvin,Walter Payton and Gale Sayers. Only Jerry Rice, who is #1 is correct

11. The following NFL players: Buckets Goldenberg, Kink Richards, Shipwreck Kelly each shared the NFL league lead in a particular category one year. Which category?

12. What does this list of names represent: Ben Davis, Don Pool, Don Phelps, Ken Konz, Travis Benjamin, Derrick Alexander, Gerald McNeil, Tom Colella, Ken Carpenter, Mark Carrier, Brian Brennan, Josh Cribbs, Dennis Northcutt, Leroy Kelly, Bobby Mitchell, Eric Metcalf.

Bonus: New franchises Jacksonville Jags/Carolina Panthers/Houston Texans have never played to a tie in their histories (but, the Ravens have). One other "older" franchise has also never had a tie in its history. Which team?

I call this Vacation Trivia because I am doing just that Saturday...going on vacation. So you will have a whole week or more to mull this over. Here are your questions:

1. Of the current 32 NFL teams, there are 5 that at one time were located in a different city AND had a different name. Name those 5 teams

Cleveland rams/browns

Baltimore colts/ravens

Raiders Oakland/LA

2. What does this list of teams represent, exclusively:

Green Bay Packers

Chicago Bears

Cleveland Browns

NY Giants

Pittsburgh Steelers

The black & blue division

3. What does this list of teams represent, exclusively:

Dallas Cowboys

Denver Broncos

New England Patriots

Pittsburgh Steelers

San Francisco 49ers

4. What does this list of teams, in this precise order represent:

A. NY Giants

B. Dallas Cowboys

C1. Cleveland Browns

C2. Green Bay Packers

D1. St. Louis Rams

D2. Pittsburgh Steelers

D3. Minnesota Vikings

5. The Arizona/St. Louis/Chicago Cardinals are one of only 2 "original" NFL teams left from the inaugural 1920 NFL season. In that franchises history who has been their winningest Head Coach?

George Halas

6. The lowest total for the career passing yards leader of any of the 32NFL franchises is the sum of 14,686 yards. Name this franchise...and the QB if you can.

San Diego and Dan Fouts

7. Which team's career pass receiving yard is the lowest of any the 32 franchises with ony 5059 yards? Name the team, and the receiver if you can.

8. Which colleges alumni have scored the most TDs in NFL history?

9. Three colleges have 40 or more active NFL players (as of the end of last season). Which three?

Ohio State, USC and Alabama

10. Name the 5 players that have scored the most TDs in NFL history.

Jim Brown,Jerry rice,Michael Irvin,Walter Payton and Gale Sayers.

11. The following NFL players: Buckets Goldenberg, Kink Richards, Shipwreck Kelly each shared the NFL league lead in a particular category one year. Which category?

12. What does this list of names represent: Ben Davis, Don Pool, Don Phelps, Ken Konz, Travis Benjamin, Derrick Alexander, Gerald McNeil, Tom Colella, Ken Carpenter, Mark Carrier, Brian Brennan, Josh Cribbs, Dennis Northcutt, Leroy Kelly, Bobby Mitchell, Eric Metcalf.

Bonus: New franchises Jacksonville Jags/Carolina Panthers/Houston Texans have never played to a tie in their histories (but, the Ravens have). One other "older" franchise has also never had a tie in its history. Which team?