@jewdago said:

did he run routes in florida's offense? all i remember seeing him do is get the ball out of the backfield or on screens. the only time i really remember seeing him run a route is when he went deep.

it's not to say that he won't run great routes, just that he hasn't. however, his speed and strength are a ridiculous combination and cannot be ignored. there are a lot of mid to late first round guys this year that i'd like to have a lot more than the guys who are at the so-called 'top' of the draft, like rashad jennings, larry english and percy harvin, especially english or harvin.

Yes, he lined up outside or was put in motion outside....he ran routes and can run routes.

Don't think the Fla offense is some goofy O with no rhyme or reason...people need to be in places...they don't just run around wherever they want to even if it seems that way to the casual onlooker.

I have watched a lot of Gator football....on TV and in person as a season ticket holder....it may not be the conventional O your dad watched, but it is every bit as precise.

Tebow isn't outlining plays in the palm of his hand while in the huddle.

But he could!

@flugel said:

We've been an IDEAL opponent for Pittsburgh to beat up on because everyone of their LBers can outrun the 3-time knee surgeried Kellen Winslow today. In addition, we all saw Polly run down Braylon Edwards from behind a couple years ago so what have we decided we'd battle them with? A 1960s offense where Reuben Droughns and NOW the worn torn Jamal Lewis is gonna run over them and through them. They're undefeated against that idea unfortunately so we've gotta modernize some with the TYPE of player that can be multi-dimensional. I'm not saying EVERYONE has to be blazing in our offense but it sure would be nice to have 1 guy capable of scoring from anywhere on the field vrs Pittsburgh or we remain too easy to matchup with.

The BEST way to beat an aggressive blitz is by speed. If you refrain from having speed you invite Pittsburgh to do what they love to do - attack without risk. That's us until the day we change that. If our only guy with speed has the Northcutt dropsies - we need a guy like Harvin to make that situation better.

How many times have we witnessed 10-6 or 10-7 losses over the years? It's nice to have a guy that can change all that on 1 play where somebody is out of position. There's a reason our offense can't score points and a BIG part of that is we don't have enough team speed where we need it.

- Tom F.

i wasn't trying to say that harvin won't be a good, likely great, player, just that he's not as polished as a guy like crabtree. the NFL doesn't accommodate harvin's unique skill set as easily as college does. it'll take a creative OC to figure out the best ways to get him the ball in space so he can use that speed while he's learning how to do what a traditional receiver in the NFL does.

@flugel said:

I STILL think Braylon Edwards is a promising player and having a kid like Crabtree or Harvin opposite him would only make him better. Braylon's problem in 2008 was we didn't have another WR worth our opponent's worrying about so he had too much traffic around him at all times, which caused the dropsies/Northcutts.

- Tom F.

ha ha ha.....BE's butterfingers were the result of what again??? dude dropped nearly everyball served up to him....the worst year a browns receiver has had ever....your reasoning is ridiculous.

@jewdago said:

did he run routes in florida's offense? all i remember seeing him do is get the ball out of the backfield or on screens. the only time i really remember seeing him run a route is when he went deep.

it's not to say that he won't run great routes, just that he hasn't. however, his speed and strength are a ridiculous combination and cannot be ignored. there are a lot of mid to late first round guys this year that i'd like to have a lot more than the guys who are at the so-called 'top' of the draft, like rashad jennings, larry english and percy harvin, especially english or harvin.

Good points JD BUT I think you're introducing the concept of upside AND what we could best attack a risky zone blitz screen with. SPEED and short range precision. When I say speed I mean a guy with talent NOT Paul Hubbard. Harvin was the BEST weapon on the best team in the country. He's unique but even better was he had a Head Coach that understood this so he was used in many different ways because of his skill levels accompanying his speed.

We've been an IDEAL opponent for Pittsburgh to beat up on because everyone of their LBers can outrun the 3-time knee surgeried Kellen Winslow today. In addition, we all saw Polly run down Braylon Edwards from behind a couple years ago so what have we decided we'd battle them with? A 1960s offense where Reuben Droughns and NOW the worn torn Jamal Lewis is gonna run over them and through them. They're undefeated against that idea unfortunately so we've gotta modernize some with the TYPE of player that can be multi-dimensional. I'm not saying EVERYONE has to be blazing in our offense but it sure would be nice to have 1 guy capable of scoring from anywhere on the field vrs Pittsburgh or we remain too easy to matchup with.

The BEST way to beat an aggressive blitz is by speed. If you refrain from having speed you invite Pittsburgh to do what they love to do - attack without risk. That's us until the day we change that. If our only guy with speed has the Northcutt dropsies - we need a guy like Harvin to make that situation better.

How many times have we witnessed 10-6 or 10-7 losses over the years? It's nice to have a guy that can change all that on 1 play where somebody is out of position. There's a reason our offense can't score points and a BIG part of that is we don't have enough team speed where we need it.

- Tom F.

@flugel said:

If that kid bench presses 450 pounds like the commentators were told he does - we're not looking at a frail Dennis Northcutt type. We're looking at a Terry Glenn with POWER. Hard to find a better sudden impact than Terry Glenn had coming out except maybe Torry Holt landing opposite of Ike Bruce on a 5-11 franchise turned into Superbowl Champions Holt's rookie year. That 1 extra dimension or attack prong can make all the difference in the world.

harvin's an interesting option. somehow, i think five is too high for him, but have no idea why, and i like him more than crabtree. possibly i think five is high because he's not a polished prospect.

did he run routes in florida's offense? all i remember seeing him do is get the ball out of the backfield or on screens. the only time i really remember seeing him run a route is when he went deep.

it's not to say that he won't run great routes, just that he hasn't. however, his speed and strength are a ridiculous combination and cannot be ignored. there are a lot of mid to late first round guys this year that i'd like to have a lot more than the guys who are at the so-called 'top' of the draft, like rashad jennings, larry english and percy harvin, especially english or harvin.

Then I was discussing us possibly taking Crabtree with the 5th pick this year with a friend, and he claimed that Crabtree was overrated, thats when he showed me Dez Bryant. When you compare the two side by side, its obvious who wins that one. I say we wait another year to draft a WR because this one is shallow.... check the side by side...

Alone, Crabtree looks pretty awesome, but when compared directly to others... he gets a rubber stamp labled "FAIL"

@ytownbrownsbacker said:

I look back to Butch Davis and into Savage's rein and see us picking for need and see guys we skipped having HOF careers while our 1st round picks are out of football.

It's not really about Crabtree, but knowing our need is defense, do you pass on any position of offensive player if he is rated far above the next defensive player? If A. Peterson was there this year would you take defense? If a Joe Thomas type lineman, say RT is there, do you pass on him to reach for a defensive player?

I originally asked this question because I believe this is what happened with Wimbley, Green and "big money", we drafted for need.

I thought it was a great read and discussion piece Ytown! Crabtree is a stud. I LOVED watching Texas Tech and if the Mad Scientist didn't have studs like Crabtree - his ability to lay chess changes considerably. If we were all set on offense - we would have scored some TDs the last 2 months of the season.

I STILL think Braylon Edwards is a promising player and having a kid like Crabtree or Harvin opposite him would only make him better. Braylon's problem in 2008 was we didn't have another WR worth our opponent's worrying about so he had too much traffic around him at all times, which caused the dropsies/Northcutts.

- Tom F.

I look back to Butch Davis and into Savage's rein and see us picking for need and see guys we skipped having HOF careers while our 1st round picks are out of football.

It's not really about Crabtree, but knowing our need is defense, do you pass on any position of offensive player if he is rated far above the next defensive player? If A. Peterson was there this year would you take defense? If a Joe Thomas type lineman, say RT is there, do you pass on him to reach for a defensive player?

I originally asked this question because I believe this is what happened with Wimbley, Green and "big money", we drafted for need.

@ballpeen said:

He will move up.

I'm using alot of hearsay from his teammates as reported in games I witnessed. It seems like a large portion of the 4.2 club at UF all seemed to share the consensus of opinion that Harvin was their fastest guy. What would that really mean if he had stonehands like Paul Hubbard? Because he doesn't, which one of their speed demons seemed to be the focal point of Urban Meyer's games plans in the BIG games? Everytime I watched - it looked like Percy Harvin. Since they usually WON these with him being their goto guy - why does Harvin take a back seat to anyone playing the WR position?

If that kid bench presses 450 pounds like the commentators were told he does - we're not looking at a frail Dennis Northcutt type. We're looking at a Terry Glenn with POWER. Hard to find a better sudden impact than Terry Glenn had coming out except maybe Torry Holt landing opposite of Ike Bruce on a 5-11 franchise turned into Superbowl Champions Holt's rookie year. That 1 extra dimension or attack prong can make all the difference in the world.

Ballpeen, believe it not, I'll weigh your input on what you think of Harvin vrs Crabtree because nobody watches the Florida Gators more closely than you. I'm impressed with BOTH kids but I gotta tell you Oklahoma had more solutions for Crabtree than they had for Harvin. And I do LIKE Crabtree alot so neither kid would suck IMO. There's just that little something extra I see in Harvin. One minute I'm looking at Florida's backs to the goal line. I Percy Harvin sprint later - Florida is on Oklahoma's side of the 50, which means he can do more than just fetch passes if you need him to.

- Tom F. (Right now I have it an even tie between Harvin and Curry as my favorite for us. It changes with the wind. It's nice to have more than 1 good choice in case someone plucks one of them out from under us)

@shepwrite said:

Not one team with Calvin Johnson has ever had a winning record. Ever. Not once.

I think that has more to do with the guys Matt Millen has taken with all of his other picks. I don't question his drafting CJ.

Megatron has over 2,000 receiving yards in 16 TD's through two seasons, and that's despite being hurt for most of his rookie year. And if a guy was uber-productive with Reggie frickin' Ball as his college QB, you know he's special.

Like JewDago, I need to see some more of Crabtree before giving a final judgment. But from what I've seen thus far, he's not in Calvin Johnson's league as a prospect.

@ytownbrownsbacker said:

Crabtree has size, speed, is physical and has great hands. But, he is noted as a player with great character and no ego problems. Besides being the #1 WR, he is the #1 rated player in the draft.

So, what will the Browns due when Edwards walks after this season because he is unappreciated in Cleveland by the fans. Anybody actually think this guy will show any loyality to the Browns. I see Plaxico here. Edwards will always be a disruptive person because he is a "me" first guy and always will be.

Hey Mario, you think Crabtree will be as overhyped as Fitzgerald or Andre Johnson. Guys with character, great work ethic and great skills that Crabtree is being compared to. Or, is that an idiotic question? Those guys sure were busts and a waste of picks. But, that wasn't the question and I realize it flew over your head.

Do you pick Crabtree because he is the highest rated player in the draft or do you pick for need and take a "safe" player?

Personally I would not want to be a defensive coach that has to set a game plan to stop Crabtree, Edwards and Winslow. On the flip side do you think any offensive coach will lose any sleep over Curry being in the middle of our defense?

You make so many great points and post in this thread.

But I have a question. Couldn't you see future problems with Edwards if we draft Crabtree and he ends up getting the majority of catches and highlights on ESPN?

Edwards cried this year and blamed his drops on Anderson by saying he didn't get the ball in the first half and as a result lost concentration in the second half that lead to drops.

I could see Edwards causing all kinds of problems if Crabtree ends up on ths team.

That's the last thing a first year coach and basically a first year QB will want to deal with.

@geech said:

You talk about an "off year," but Braylon has had nothing but off years except for 2007. I won't call you an idiot, but it is somewhat idiotic to base your assessment of Bray on one "on year" that he had. What about 2005? 2006? His college days? Every scouting report from here to Moscow stated that Bray had alot of "concentration issues," which I translate as "hearing footsteps." That much is clear. He definitely is very hesitant to take a hit, but what really causes me to scratch my head are those bombs with no footsteps to hear that just roll off of his fingers.

His play in college, 2005, 2006, and 2008 is quite an overwhelming chunk of evidence.

Do you think Bray has good body mass for a WR? I don't. Those are some awfully skinny legs on that boy.

The Quinn comparison is baseless. Quinn has had very few starts. Bray has played for 4 years.

-Al

Great post.............................Braylon came out of college with the tag of a guy who showed lacks of concentration, dropped passes and had some character issues along with an attitude problem. Yes he was the #1 WR in that draft. The mistake was he wasn't the #1 player available, he was a need.

Crabtree has size, speed, is physical and has great hands. But, he is noted as a player with great character and no ego problems. Besides being the #1 WR, he is the #1 rated player in the draft.

So, what will the Browns due when Edwards walks after this season because he is unappreciated in Cleveland by the fans. Anybody actually think this guy will show any loyality to the Browns. I see Plaxico here. Edwards will always be a disruptive person because he is a "me" first guy and always will be.

Hey Mario, you think Crabtree will be as overhyped as Fitzgerald or Andre Johnson. Guys with character, great work ethic and great skills that Crabtree is being compared to. Or, is that an idiotic question? Those guys sure were busts and a waste of picks. But, that wasn't the question and I realize it flew over your head.

Do you pick Crabtree because he is the highest rated player in the draft or do you pick for need and take a "safe" player?

Personally I would not want to be a defensive coach that has to set a game plan to stop Crabtree, Edwards and Winslow. On the flip side do you think any offensive coach will lose any sleep over Curry being in the middle of our defense?

He will move up.

@mario said:

Who ever is casting a vote to trade Edwards is an absolute complete idiot and should turn in their browns hat and jersey, because they have no idea on football.

All the hate is due to his butterfingers.

You talk about an "off year," but Braylon has had nothing but off years except for 2007. I won't call you an idiot, but it is somewhat idiotic to base your assessment of Bray on one "on year" that he had. What about 2005? 2006? His college days? Every scouting report from here to Moscow stated that Bray had alot of "concentration issues," which I translate as "hearing footsteps." That much is clear. He definitely is very hesitant to take a hit, but what really causes me to scratch my head are those bombs with no footsteps to hear that just roll off of his fingers.

His play in college, 2005, 2006, and 2008 is quite an overwhelming chunk of evidence.

Do you think Bray has good body mass for a WR? I don't. Those are some awfully skinny legs on that boy.

The Quinn comparison is baseless. Quinn has had very few starts. Bray has played for 4 years.

-Al

Zombo said:

Zombo

He looks like a stud. I was surprised yesterday to hear Skip Bayless on ESPN saying he thinks Crabtree isn't a good top 5 pick. I LOVED watching Texas Tech play because they had another Wes Welker clone (named Morris???) and of course Crabtree was Mr Playmaker. I mistakenly put Kiper down in lieu of Bayless but I think Kiper has Crabtree as his #1 WR right now.

Bayless's concerns and don't shoot the mesenger that disgrees with him but he said he's seen more than 1 team able to shut down Crabtree. He obviously wasn't referring to Texas because Crabtree was the reason they played Ohio State instead of Florida.

This year I can't make up my mind because we have more holes than a golf course. However, I'm getting so sick of seeing a passive 3-4 that Curry is my favorite choice on defense.

On the other hand, our offense couldn't score a TD for 6 weeks so it would be nice to see a Crabtree or Harvin opposite Edwards. Harvin might open up more options in our offense because he took somehandoffs from the QB this year. I think after he goes to the Indy combines and runs the most impressive 40s and outbenchpresses everyone - he'll be one of the fast risers. Anyone that has seen Florida play understands WHO their goto guy was when it was crunch time. Right now, he's the most underrated kid in the first round. Bayless might have mentioned that too - I just didn't have enough coffee in my ass to retain more than hearing Bayless say he thinks Crabtree is overrated.

Knowhson Moreno could add some hone run threat to our backfield BUT I've seen good RBs landing on teams long after round 1. Marlon Lucky from Nebraska might be worth exploring in round 2 or 3. He looked great in last week's all star game.

- Tom F.

Why all the hate on Braylon Edwards? The guy was absolutely one of the BEST Wide Recievers in 2007. 2008 comes around, he gets stepped on by Donte, and is sidelined. He plays the first few games with a torn open ankle. He plays the first few games with an offensive line not protecting the QB, letting him get hit after every single throw. He plays the first few games getting laid out by DA balls, and injures his shoulder. He is no playing on a flesh wound on the back of his ankle being restiched every week, and a bum shoulder. The guy plays tough, just has mental issues w/ getting nailed everytime he catches the ball across the middle.

Randy Moss didn't play too hot in Oakland. Chad Johnson has had "off" year, TO has had off years, all the good WR's aren't going to give you a 1200yards season w/ 16TDs every year.

Who ever is casting a vote to trade Edwards is an absolute complete idiot and should turn in their browns hat and jersey, because they have no idea on football.

Last I recall Quinn didn't exactly have a stellar first few starts, and this is the guy who was coming otu of College and was "NFL ready". What happened to NFL ready? Only game he looked good in was the game they let him dink and dunk Joe Montana style to save him from having to throw down field. What was quinns longest complettion out of 3 games and how many times did he do that? last time I remember Quinn throwing deep was in pre-season to Steptoe and it was thrown SHORT, PICKED OFF, and Steptoe stripped it out he guys arms and ran it. Should we trade Quinn too beause he didn't live up to his hype?

Get a grip on reality, You draft Crabtree and this is year #2 we didn't have a first round pick, because he is a waste of a pick.

@ytownbrownsbacker said:

I agree and have been saying so for years.

FA is all about needs. Teams don't sign the BPA in FA, they sign guys they need.

Unless the pick makes absolutely no sense at all....BPA is a qb, and you have a pro-bowl qb....take the best player. Period.

First picks are usually signed to 6-7 year deals.....your needs now won't be like that in 5 years.

If you have 2 players rated the same, sure, use immediate needs as the guide, but for the long term health of the team, you are goofy not to select the BPA.

@squintz said:

I agree 100% that this team needs to vastly improve its defense. MY question is do you pass on a guy tagged as a superstar for a guy that is noted as being solid? Who will impact the W/L column the best? How solid would a defensive player picked at #37 be?

In FA I can get a Crowder or a Scott who are better then solid, as Curry is being talked about. But, I can't find a Crabtree in FA.

I'm not saying that you should always pick the best available or highest rated player on your list over need, but when their is a vast dfference on how high they are rated, then I think you have to consider who would have the greater influence on wins and losses.

There's no right definitive answer. It all depends how high you are on a player and how much you think he can improve your team. Also do you feel that someone at #37 could help you just as much. We need to acquire more draft picks and be active in FA, then you can have this conversation closer to draft day.

I want to Win! not keep losing to be able to get this guy or that guy we can leave that shit for Detroit and Cincy.

Dez Bryant

They dont make them any Bigger, and any Faster than this guys. If he was entering this year he'd be top 5. Look at those hands as well!

Theres your braylon replacement

K2 BE MC and JH with BQ throwing the rock..... shits like clevage... I cant turn away!