A common defense when someone is wrong or put in a position where they can no longer defend a flawed claim is to change the focus of the subject. We were talking about AFrica nor did I ever make the claim that theft of rescources here in the states does not happen. It does not happen no where even close to what we are factually doing in other continents.

Yes I have been to coal mining towns in WV and south eastern ohio.

First for you to compare U.S. workers in either the loggin industry or Coal mining industry is laughable. Obviously you have never been to any region of Africa. The poverty level and education/understanding of an average worker versus other oppurtunities that are available in each respective country is no where near comparable.

We have lawyers and NGO's along with official agencies along with competent medical facilities versus well NOTHING in most of those countries. The EPA when it does work along with state agencies are 1,000,000 more organized and backed up socially and structually than any African country has.

Legacy the people of those countries are being abused just like they would be anywhere there is not sufficient oversight. It happens here still but there are too many spotlights that can illuminate and prosecute those problems. Most African nations are like when were expanding West as a naion.... fairly lawless and corrurtable.

@osusev said:

Well no, obviously not anymore, after I corrected you on the matter.

I dont want us to act as the world police either... Obviously I have a rabid hate for the neocons just because of their proactive interventionist theories.

However our nation has for the last 80 years wanted to be the leader and actively marketed and spread democracy and other moral principles. IF we are marketing the kool aid than maybe we should be leading by example.

IF its not ok to poison our own people and steal from them what makes it right for our corps under our laws to do so overseas? Humans are still humans regardless of what country they happen to inhabit. We are profiting immensly from their rescources while they live in squalid conditions and envirementally poisonous land.

I realize that life is basically a competition with winners and losers, but our wealthy country does not have to turn a blind eye like we do to how and where we benefit from.

Since we are on the subject of "stealing" natural resources, I'll refute your claim that it doesn't happen here in our country:

How many ballin' ass coal miners do you know? Have you ever been to a coal-mining town? Steve Jobs sure as shit isn't opening any apple-douche stores in Appalachia. Sure, there are some bigwigs in each town employed by various facets of the industry (research, mining, transport, etc.) Shouldn't those workers digging the shit out of the ground get paid like saudi princes?? Not unless you want to pay several thousand dollars a week heating/cooling your home. Man, we suck.

Loggers? Pretty dangerous work, those guys make decent livings, but are relatively poor when compared to other regions of the country. Maybe I haven't looked hard enough, but I haven't seen anybody chroming out their Stihl Farm boss' at the local small engine repair shop. That's not fair, right?

Daschle, Geitner & the gang command a pretty absurd salary relative to the work they perform, and owe more in taxes than 90% of the country makes in a year. Convince me they aren't stealing from our country, our people. I'll save you the trouble - you cant.

I dont want us to act as the world police either... Obviously I have a rabid hate for the neocons just because of their proactive interventionist theories.

However our nation has for the last 80 years wanted to be the leader and actively marketed and spread democracy and other moral principles. IF we are marketing the kool aid than maybe we should be leading by example.

IF its not ok to poison our own people and steal from them what makes it right for our corps under our laws to do so overseas? Humans are still humans regardless of what country they happen to inhabit. We are profiting immensly from their rescources while they live in squalid conditions and envirementally poisonous land.

I realize that life is basically a competition with winners and losers, but our wealthy country does not have to turn a blind eye like we do to how and where we benefit from.

@osusev said:

I'm not saying it's right (nor did I ever hint at the notion that it would be). But you are way off base regarding the impetus of the slave trade. It had nothing to do with bribes. Rulers of indigenous tribes had goods we wanted (people), and we had goods they wanted (rum - which is why the triangle makes a pitstop in the West Indies, & guns). I think I learned about the barter system in 4th grade.

What I am saying, is that it's not our responsibility, as a nation, to "bring up the guy behind you." You and I as individuals can choose not to support companies that participate in any behavior we deem unfit for whatever reason. That would be where my moral compass comes in to play. I don't get to dictate what my moral compass should make you do - that's called fascism.

We've seen what playing World Police accomplishes (middle east). There are economic reasons for our presence there, and we are witnessing countries that stand up, and say they don't want to participate in the group back-scratch. But guess what? you can't cry foul when we stop paying for your drinks. The middle east's eternal routine of selling us oil for the price they set but bitching about the West being the cause for their poplulation's poverty is the same thing as the hot girl's fat friend who will drink all night on your tab, but then C-blocks you when it's time to cash in. Every once in a while, you've got to either accidentally push the tub-face down some stairs, or send in a super-drunk wingman (Israel) to distract her.

Can't disagree, except the last line. Pres Bush invested more billions of $$$$$ to fight aids than ever before in our history...

but the $$$$ goes to? Depends on the governments. Corruption? Greed?

Sadly, seems to be any direction you can shake a stick.

Cal in that last post you where talking a awful lot about what governments in that continent should do and their responsibility for their people......

here is the problem.... if said government which i will refer to as X was developed and organized by colonialism and then with the subsequent world transition to capitalism is given option A which usually is we will help you initially if you give us all rights and access to your rescources you will be granted freedom and support.

well like the trickle down theory that fails to take into account human corruption those influences know factually that they can corrupt those individuals and do so. Its not rocket science and people dont often like to hear they benefit from less than moral actions such as what is used in Africa.

Diamonds.... oil... and tons of other minerals are extracted from that continent and we do prop up corps and policies that in fact do basically steal and poison from the local populace.

I do blame personal and governmental responsibility on the locals, I am realistice enough to understand the allure of money and support and how it affects a majority of people.

Its not our fault directly.... more indirectly and honestly ignorance by the out of sight out of mind principle. The aid packages that is talked about in the news is just marketing window dressing so our population thinks we are helping. Ultimately it is each countries and population responsibility, I just happen to hold the opinion that outside influeces now are too strong and ingrained generationally for the corruption to realistically change. Look at our own system which is completely corrupted and hijacked by money and special interest.

We dont exactly act or do much because we have our basic needs and entertainment value met.

that Africa is destitute in many countries, many, many areas....

and government dole "enslaves" people to dependency.

It has nothing to do with other countries going in there and

getting natural resources out of there, which they have done, you think that

is not by "permission" by whoever is the "government" now?

It has nothing to do with the slave trade. Did you know that

it was corrupt AFRICAN BLACKS who also were bringing AFRICAN BLACKS to

other countries to be slaves? Intertribe fighting and oppression has been

going on for how long now?

The Peace Corps has been working to teach a lot of the poor

to garden and farm for themselves. In some areas, that works.

But all too often, government dole breeds depency and sloth.

The African governments should have kicked out the diamond traders and foreign

natural resource groups who treated their poverty stricken "employees" so poorly

long ago.

but as usual in this world, those in power live and eat like kings, while their populace

suffers from poverty in the worst degree.

But poverty and infighting goes on, and so does the dependency of the poor Africans

who have not much choice, unless they can have gov's who will protect their FREEDOM

and can get some land and equipment to do their own farming.

Until then, whining that American farmers get assistance is ridiculous, depending on the weather,

a whole LOT of farmers could be wiped out by too much debt and no income, causing them to

not be able to fund the huge amount of $$$$ the next year to farm.

Weather affects food production. The system has checks and balances in it to perpetuate

the ability to farm.

It has nothing to do with keeping Africans poor.

Always the victimizing of themselves, and the rest of us and our country is the "bad guy".

Every freakin time ???

@osusev said:

So now world socialism is the goal?

You'll have a problem getting your fellow lefties to move into mud huts but maybe Obammy can give a speech...?

WSS

If a advanced culture arms 100 strong men with rusty ak-47 against spears in order to retain control and then brings in their own private military contractors what exactly do you think that is?

wow justifying ecological disasters that corp KNOWINGLY fully realize they are doing because the limited knowledge of organized resistance and or governmental operations is ok and not stealing....

blood diamonds.....ok Debeers is banned in the united states as a monopoly and currently operates a HUGE private militia all over Africa.....

so slavery was not wrong for countries because someone was able to bribe some of the indegenous population? I am the athiest and you are a christian right? where is your moral compass?

My point, is that the US (& imperial Europe) is/was only taking advantage of the corruption & greed already present in the countries. Capitalism didn't invent greed, as many of you like to believe.

To start a slave trade, a chief/ruler/whatever has to be willing to trade his own people for guns & booze. We didn't steal people.

To continue the blood diamond trade, those in charge are willing to allow the bloodshed & tyranny continue in exchange for a case of 7.63 x 39mm rounds & a pack of smokes every day. Those who "employ" their own villages to mine for the things. We aren't stealing them.

Just because you wouldn't dig through dirt for $.20/day with your uncle standing over top of you with a machete & a rusty Kalashnikova rifle doesn't mean that continent isn't being reimbursed.

the somebody collecting the check would be anyone that benefits from the returns in mutual funds invested in those projects along with the corps that are based in europe and the U.S.

some of you were talking about Aid packages like we the general tax payers were paying for it when really thay is false. We benefit from the raw materials and products immensly and give little to nothing in return. So this topic was flawed and intellectually dishonest.

Cal..... was that a response toward the pompous charge? that was an odd post and not even a response to your ability to bust a fraud who does not know how to code in any of the myriad languages availabe but tries to pass of information like he does.

A computer program can be written in fine ways, in different languages.

You simply diss any language you don't program in, as "not the right language"..

elitism. Self - centered, extremely bigoted to anything not buoying one's ego, based on uniqueness as

an end all boon to the same "self".

@osusev said:

so yes technically you nor I pay ANY money toward these aid packages because the gross revenue in taxes and earnings from the market well exceed any sort of organized disbursement to that continent.

Africa is not poor by choice, more exploited by first imperialistic europe and than now by advanced capitalism that can deploy technology and money to corrupt.. I mean support governments who grant us anything we want in exchange for living better than the indeginous peoples. Its like what the Catholics did in order to market I mean spread their business... I mean religion to less advanced cultures. Come in with superior arms and funds to build schools that only taught from the Bible to brainwash I mean teach reading and support only leaders who granted them sole rights to exploit.... I mean help their people. That is why Catholicism still has tons of money coming from the Third world where education has much lower standards.

Not poor by choice but by exploitation and manipulation.

No, I'm talking about paying for the resources we are apparently raping. Nothing is free & somebody is collecting a check for our alleged rape (lions & tigers & catholics, Oh my!) .

Are you (and PB&J, since he apparently agrees), calling for a PROHIBITION on purchasing goods from 3rd world nations? Because, I mean now we are at least collecting taxes on it, and some folks are getting paid for those goods/resources.

I am sure since you are a programmer if a person came in and posted some code that they made up without any knowledge of what they were doing and passing it off as a working product you could and should expose them. Other people who dont have the benefit of your experience/education and knowledge in that field would benefit and not be taken in or duped into a flawed and false product.

***************************************

so yes technically you nor I pay ANY money toward these aid packages because the gross revenue in taxes and earnings from the market well exceed any sort of organized disbursement to that continent.

Africa is not poor by choice, more exploited by first imperialistic europe and than now by advanced capitalism that can deploy technology and money to corrupt.. I mean support governments who grant us anything we want in exchange for living better than the indeginous peoples. Its like what the Catholics did in order to market I mean spread their business... I mean religion to less advanced cultures. Come in with superior arms and funds to build schools that only taught from the Bible to brainwash I mean teach reading and support only leaders who granted them sole rights to exploit.... I mean help their people. That is why Catholicism still has tons of money coming from the Third world where education has much lower standards.

Not poor by choice but by exploitation and manipulation.

So we don't pay for any of it? Dude, can I get in on that?

That is something I push on my children to experience and learn about anything and everything everyday. If that bothers you than maybe instead of trying to deliver some sarcastic insult pick up a book or attend a class on a subject you dont know... Hell I hear tell of some information superhighway new fangled thing that lets you have access to more knowledge than any library ever in existance had... something called the in ter net.

or you could just throw another insult my way, whatever makes you happy.

on a "farming" note my family and I have decided to raise chickens (brown eggs) and a small garden to start learning about some basic rudimentary farming techniques this year.

@osusev said:

Which surprises me, Sev.

It seems you claim to be the expert on every other subject.

WSS

You guys talk about "aid" to a continent as if the rescources we take are not equivelent to well over 100 times the value and leave massive eco damage for the "africans" to deal with. Cal I dont post about farming techniques and the industry because I know very little on that subject maybe you should stick to what you actually know.

So, Sev, where's the beef? This is a great thing, yes?

Or not, since it isn't a DEM president?

Research it, oh one with a lot of time. I don't have the time, myself.

Versatility and genius has it's limits, and I'm wd40ing our new 10' JD disc,

deciding where to put the greenhouse, studying our 3" thick hay book,

ordering seed,

sorry if my differing opinions shatter your peaceful psyche. Obama DOES need to read the article.