@larryfine said:

Bernie Kosar is in no physical condition to handle the daily rigors of coaching...

I seem to remember reading Brady's lips after he walked up to the line of scrimage on a 3rd and long down around our 20.

Anyway he saw that D and I believe he said something along the lines of, "What the Fuck?"... Anyway he proceeded to muff a handoff and then got into a shouting match with his RB, Woodhead.

I was in THE BrownsBacker bar in the Houston area and as Woodhead was going back at Tom, I yelled, "You run it... you're bigger than me."

Next thing I knew I was handed a free beer...

@tour2ma said:

and how did it work out for us?

@clevfan4life said:

TBH, I don't remember us building an O.

What I do remember is an exciting, overachieving, innovative D and a team attitude that certainly showed on the offensive side of the ball as well.

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:

The problem is that Horton's blitzes were I(n)effective. There was a three game span in which Horton called 56 blitzes and yet we recorded zero sacks on those calls. I believe it was weeks 12-14, but I'm not entirely sure.

I believe you skipped an "n".

I knew there was a long dry-spell in there, but had not idea it was that long. All I know is that we always seemed to blitz into space occupied by an awaiting blocker, while in game after other game I'd watch, blitzers looped into free runs at the QB.

Whether it was due to poor design, disguise or execution, our blitzes were ineffective way too often...

@miktoxic said:

sometimes he switches to a 4-3 looking scheme. the guy is all over the board which why i think his defenses are always decent given the right personnel.

LOL... I still remember the first time we saw Rob's 1-4-6 Defense... everyone except a DE in a 2-point stance.

@miktoxic said:

yes but it is as hybrid as you can get. sometimes he switches to a 4-3 looking scheme. the guy is all over the board which why i think his defenses are always decent given the right personnel.

The best DCs are the ones who can build their scheme based on personnel.

That's what Horton promised (and failed). I think someone like Mike Zimmer is almost as good as it gets. But good bigger names haven't been talked about.

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:

yes but it is as hybrid as you can get. sometimes he switches to a 4-3 looking scheme. the guy is all over the board which why i think his defenses are always decent given the right personnel.

@clevfan4life said:

nope, we'd have been sniffing the AFC championship. I guarantee we'd have won the AFC North at least twice by now, for sure this year. The offense Mangini was building was going to steam roll the North for years, he was just missing a qb.

@miktoxic said:

fuck horton. yeah he was good in ARIZ but look at the talent level, certainly a better D backfield.

i'm just not a 3-4 guy. you need pass rushers on both ends which spreads the OL out more so the DL players have a better chance of getting to the QB also. i saw nothing inventive about horton's D. one thing he did succeed is at not knowing how to adjust at halftime and let the opposing team march back from their defecits only for us to lose our halftime lead.

wonder what the team would be like if mangini and ryan were still here. hmmmmmm..................

You realize Ryan primarily adheres to the 3-4, right?

Further, in a typical 3-4, the edge rushing OLB's are lined up equally as wide as typical 4-3 defensive ends.

The problem is that Horton's blitzes were I effective. There was a three game span in which Horton called 56 blitzes and yet we recorded zero sacks on those calls. I believe it was weeks 12-14, but I'm not entirely sure.

@nickers said:

nope, we'd have been sniffing the AFC championship. I guarantee we'd have won the AFC North at least twice by now, for sure this year. The offense Mangini was building was going to steam roll the North for years, he was just missing a qb.

@tour2ma said:

If mangini was still here wed be using old vets that cant get out of thier own fucking way...no thanks...hes a Dufus...

@miktoxic said:

wonder what the team would be like if mangini and ryan were still here. hmmmmmm..................

We'd still be running the 3-4 you don't like... but it'd be a fun 3-4.

@miktoxic said:

I agree..I think the 3-4 leaves open the middle of the field too much...incidently...ever notice thats how we get continually toasted?...you need Troy Polamalu,a young Brian Urlacher and fast outside linebackers and safeties to run a proper 3-4...and a Monster NT...we have none.

i'm just not a 3-4 guy. you need pass rushers on both ends which spreads the OL out more so the DL players have a better chance of getting to the QB also. i saw nothing inventive about horton's D. one thing he did succeed is at not knowing how to adjust at halftime and let the opposing team march back from their defecits only for us to lose our halftime lead.

wonder what the team would be like if mangini and ryan were still here. hmmmmmm..................

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:

i agree we had issues. Definitely earned himself an extended stay though no question.

@clevfan4life said:

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/position/defense/seasontype/2

holy shit dude i've been as critical of the defense as anyone but he did get us to 9th overall in his first fucking year. We completely changed schemes so wtf dude? If 9th overall is "shit" for a 1st year coach then expectations are impossibly high here in Cleveland and no one is ever going to make any traction. You don't tear up a 1 year top 10 defense and you sure as fucking shit don't let the coordinator go who got the defense to that position. Yeah we have holes....which makes it all the more impressive that we were still 9th overall. With 2 more years and more drafts/FA signings Horton could have had us in the top 3 and shitting all over the AFC North. But no ur right he's shit.

We also regressed in key categories and our red zone defense was among the worst in the league.

Yards allowed isn't the end all be all of defensive statistics.

@bbedward said:

I do too, but I'd have both em here as well in a heartbeat.

@westside-steve said:

But cut from the same cloth.

XxDaBuckeyexX said:

Nah... colorblind...

Zombo said:

Ill take a defensive coach that hires a good OC all day.

Ditto... just not this DC.. Still holding out for Quinn.

@westside-steve said:

Too bad the Jets didn't fire Rex. I'd kind of like to have the Ryan brothers in Cleveland...

The day Rex Ryan comes to CLE is the day I have officially had enough.

@westside-steve said:

Too bad the Jets didn't fire Rex. I'd kind of like to have the Ryan brothers in Cleveland...

No Gipper, not Craig and Ricky...

WSS

I like the Rob brother a lot more than Rex.

@miktoxic said:

and norv looks like he's headed to minnesota.

horton did shit for us for the talent we had on D.

hire rob ryan as HC with the long hair. WMMS and the rock and roll hall of fame lookin Nword.

Too bad the Jets didn't fire Rex. I'd kind of like to have the Ryan brothers in Cleveland...

No Gipper, not Craig and Ricky...

WSS

@miktoxic said:

I 100% agree that the Shurmur regime was actually building something with that 4-3, and yeah Sheard did play better in that scheme but he wasn't a "sack master" back then either. I hated the Shurmur firing cause I knew it was another rebuild, not cause I liked Shurmur that much. But regime change is regime change. And this defense is better against the run. I just think whatever scheme you choose it has to stay for a while, not change every fucking year. I thought Horton did an outstanding job for a first year defense. If they had pulled some of that shit in year 3 though that would be another matter. Oh and we might not have drafted Mingo if we had stayed in the 4-3. Yeah i know it's what he played at LSU but he's not built to be a 4-3 DE in the NFL. He had enough problems holding up at the point in this scheme. If he had to put his hand in the dirt and get grabbed right off the line by a tackle on every play......he'd be on the practice squad by the end of the year. His strength is free ranging to the ball while keeping hands off him. As soon as people put hands on him he's neutralized.