@londonbrown said:

Hard to make claims like that

It's hard to pick between Brady and Manning. Both are incredible quarterbacks. I mean, if you put all of Denver's weapons on NE Brady probably would have had a record setting season too.

You put Denver's weapons with a guy like Kaepernick, Wilson, Flacco, Ben, etc. I don't think those guys break the records - but their offenses sure get a lot better.

I mean Manning made a backup offensive line look like studs most of the season. That takes a great QB.

Regardless...Peyton and Brady will go down as two of the greatest to ever play the position. Better than anything we, or most teams, have had in the modern era of the NFL.

@londonbrown said:

Put him in that NE team with Belichik and they win more then zero superbowls sicne Spygate

Put Brady with those offensive juggernauts Manning had yr after yr and brady has more than 1 superbowl for a career.

@cdl15 said:

Put him in that NE team with Belichik and they win more then zero superbowls sicne Spygate

@westside-steve said:

So if the browns had the opportunity to draft a 22 year old Peyton Manning or a 22 yr old Russell Wilson in this next draft which one would you want? All other things being equal of course.

WSS

I think Seattle themselves would draft a 22yo Manning at this point. Wilson's career is just beginning though.

@londonbrown said:

Manning is twice the QB Tom Brady is

@westside-steve said:

So if the browns had the opportunity to draft a 22 year old Peyton Manning or a 22 yr old Russell Wilson in this next draft which one would you want? All other things being equal of course.

WSS

I would draft a 22 year old Manning over any player in NFL history.

15 years of winning and contending sounds really good right now.

Z

@cdl15 said:

Actually, as you alluded to in the rest of your post, he did not survive in his era...

@westside-steve said:

So if the browns had the opportunity to draft a 22 year old Peyton Manning or a 22 yr old Russell Wilson in this next draft which one would you want? All other things being equal of course.

Smart question...

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:

Not so fast my friend...

Great collection of stats, but they do not exist in a vacuum...

I'd love to find a stat on "Percent of time team played with the lead", but not finding it. I think it would explain some of the differences you generated. We've had this discussion before. The scoreboard dictates how much an opponent runs influences broad catagories like "overall rushing defense".

I am sure that the contrasting offensive approaches (Denver's pass first vs. Seattle's run first) of the two SB teams explains a fair amount of the runs stopped behind the O-line.

• Denver ran a league leading 1156 total offensive plays; Seattle was 29th with 973.
• Denver rushed 461 times (11th in the league) or 39.9% ; Seattle rushed 509 times (2nd in the league) or 52.3%.
• By difference Denver passed 695 times; Seattle 464 times.

I've no doubt Ds had to honor the pass more against Denver in 3rd and short situations.

I am sure that WR quality and scheme explains the sack differences. Peyton simply does not hold the ball; Wilson holds the ball. Their difference may not be as dramatic as Hoyer vs. Wheezy, but...

And on and on and on...

Bottom line: There are many reasons why your stat collection fails to certify the clear superiority of Denver's lines to Seattle's lines to the degree that you apparently feel they do.

@calfoxwc said:

... Denver's offensive line ... (is) used to "omaha" etc.

It was nice not hearing that the entire game...

@bbedward said:

Manziels definitely a little more wreckless running the ball. At least as far as tucking it and sliding. The good news is those issues are pretty fixable. so I don't judge him on that alone.

Wreckless is a good word for what JF does. As I've repeatedly said, his competitive fire simply fogs his judgement and gets him into situations that he survived at A&M, but will not at the next level.

Pretty fixable? Leg irons? A lot can be "fixed " on a practice field (or driving range) that come s back out under pressure.

@calfoxwc said:

Exactly - the NFL is a man's game, and a lot of work ethic is required.

Manziel could turn out to be locked in to what he is in college - a spectacular improviser.

Work ethic is not an issue with Manziel from what I've heard. He loves the film room.

Not sure if "spectacular improviser" is a good or a bad thing...

WSS

@cdl15 said:

Is Trent Dilfer a better QB than Dan Marino then?

This ringss judgement on QBs is from the 80s and needs to be put to bed once and for all.

Manning is twice the QB Tom Brady is

@thenew23 said:

Right... Pretty sure Steve Young won a couple Super Bowls...

I'll take a pocket passer all day with the smarts to get yrds when everything breaks down. Stay in the pocket where it's safe and ur protected.

Actually big Ben is more of where the nfl is going. Andrew luck and cam Newton is where u wanna go.

@tour2ma said:

I have a feeling Peyton's next stop is either a broadcast booth (MNF?) or studio. After that it'll be Canton... then maybe coaching.

Agree on Brady.... one of the knocks on him in the draft was how slow afoot he was. He ran a 5.28 40 at the 2000 combine.

Big Ben is the odd duck, adding strength into the mix.

Completely agree on Bortles. When I started watching Bortles I could not believe how fast he was.

Still in the argument as far as I am concerned. Peyton's just in that "physically diminished" phase now. Most of the great QB end up there.

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:

Tell that to Peyton Manning. No the dumbest thing is you refusing to admit the same thing other guys here are seeing- Manziel's running style puts him at an above average risk of a serious knee injury. .

@cdl15 said:

no excuse, they are just rolling the dice like we are although they have a lot more info than us.

@calfoxwc said:

I have a feeling Peyton's next stop is either a broadcast booth (MNF?) or studio. After that it'll be Canton... then maybe coaching.

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:

I wouldn't include Tom Brady. He has tremendous pocket awareness, but that's where his elusiveness stops. Rodgers, however, is an apt comparison.

All you need is a quarterback who's mobile enough to extend plays, a la Roethlisberger and Wilson.

I believe Bortles is more than mobile enough to elude rushers, as is Manziel.

Agree on Brady.... one of the knocks on him in the draft was how slow afoot he was. He ran a 5.28 40 at the 2000 combine.

Big Ben is the odd duck, adding strength into the mix.

Completely agree on Bortles. When I started watching Bortles I could not believe how fast he was.

@cdl15 said:

Best ever???? That was ARGUEABLE last week. Now it's official. NO FUCKING WAY.

Still in the argument as far as I am concerned. Peyton's just in that "physically diminished" phase now. Most of the great QB end up there.

is far higher across the board for him to get away with it like he did in college.

It's a concern.

@hoorta said:

Good Lord, just pull up a YouTube of Manzel- and tell me with a straight face you don't see extreme cutting, Hell, watching his footwork on the first video I pulled up, I'm surprised he hasn't blown out a knee yet with no hit. We're talking Erick Metcalf level dancing.

Extreme cutting?

Okay.

"Hey, Haslam. This is your scouting department. We're not comfortable taking Manziel. Yeah, the guy just cuts way too hard. I'm talking extreme cutting. We'd feel more comfortable with a guy who just runs into contact or, better yet, just falls and turtles whenever a defender gets within five yards. Better to save those knees than get yards."

That is literally the dumbest thing I've heard on here in a long time.

Exactly - the NFL is a man's game, and a lot of work ethic is required.

Manziel could turn out to be locked in to what he is in college - a spectacular

improviser.

But like a lot of NFL players have said "in the NFL, every player was great in college"

What if, in interviews, he comes across like a lazy off the field hotshot who isn't coachable?

Still think he's the guy at 4 because he was great in college?

@miktoxic said:

I might advocate taking an OL in the first round....if like David Yankey were there for our #26 pick....and there truly seemed to be no better option.

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:

I'd love some video breakdown of the differences in their "running styles".

I hear about this a good amount from people here, yet rarely anywhere else.

Manziels definitely a little more wreckless running the ball. At least as far as tucking it and sliding. The good news is those issues are pretty fixable. so I don't judge him on that alone.

There's other more pertinent potential issues to discuss with manziel IMO. Like, partying problems and can he effectively throw without escaping the pocket. You won't get those 10 second crazy plays in the big leagues. You have to get rid of it correctly fast. Extending the play is good if nothing's open. But I've seen manziel tape of him passing on open targets and extending a play forever until his primary read reroutes for the 3rd time to get open.

Maybe a limited sample, but those plays don't happen in the NFL often.

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:

Good Lord, just pull up a YouTube of Manzel- and tell me with a straight face you don't see extreme cutting, Hell, watching his footwork on the first video I pulled up, I'm surprised he hasn't blown out a knee yet with no hit. We're talking Erick Metcalf level dancing.

@hoorta said:

Because his running style is not Wilson's. Kapernick has at least 3 inches and 20 pounds on Johnny Football. Try telling me that doesn't matter.

You take one of those extreme pirouettes or cuts Manziel routinely does at the wrong time, namely a TJ Ward style shot to the leg, and it's bye-bye ACL or more.

BTW, if Manziel can clock a sub-4.4 at the combine, I may slightly change my mind.

I'd love some video breakdown of the differences in their "running styles".

I hear about this a good amount from people here, yet rarely anywhere else.

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:

Because his running style is not Wilson's. Kapernick has at least 3 inches and 20 pounds on Johnny Football. Try telling me that doesn't matter.

You take one of those extreme pirouettes or cuts Manziel routinely does at the wrong time, namely a TJ Ward style shot to the leg, and it's bye-bye ACL or more.

BTW, if Manziel can clock a sub-4.4 at the combine, I may slightly change my mind.