@the-gipper said:

I believe that entrance to the Cleveland Museum of Art is free.

Yea the Carnegie museums in pittsburgh do similar. Rock hall is outrageous.

@vagitron said:

I believe that entrance to the Cleveland Museum of Art is free.

@bbedward said:

There's pretty much always ways to get very discounted tickets or free tickets. Hotels in the city will frequently do that.

I think it's like $20 for adults though, it's not terrible IMO. It's definitely worth going through once. Takes maybe 3-6 hours to get through it.

@vagitron said:

You are correct in that the rock hall is fine BUT its stupidly overpriced. I didn't realize canton was a part of greater Cleveland. My bad.

There's pretty much always ways to get very discounted tickets or free tickets. Hotels in the city will frequently do that.

I think it's like $20 for adults though, it's not terrible IMO. It's definitely worth going through once. Takes maybe 3-6 hours to get through it.

@vagitron said:

I haven't been in there in a few years so I guess I didn't know how much it cost. A lot huh? I guess it is like everything else then.

A key thing in the quote I used above is the Neilsen "Designated Market". This is essentially what the NFL uses to identify a teams natural marketplace....or a team's area of natural influence. Basically it is the 75 mile radius that the NFL uses for determining blackout areas.

A place like Youngstown falls within the Designated Market area of both Cleveland and Pittsburgh. Canton is fully within Cleveland's DMA. Toledo falls in the Detroit DMA, but not Cleveland's. Sandusky is in both.

Columbus is outside both the Cleveland and Cincy DMAs.

Some teams can have larger areas of influence than others due to location. e.g. the Denver Broncos draw from all of Colorado, western Kansas and Nebraska, Wyoming, Montana, parts of New Mexico and Utah.

Compare to Baltimore that is squeezed between Washington and Philadelphia. Almost none of its "natural area of influence" is not overlapped by one of those other teams.

@the-gipper said:

Austin is becoming a pretty big congested mess. My daughter is in school in San Antonio, so I know. When I was taking her to school a couple of years ago we ended up in essentially a parking lot on I-35 in Austin. I do like the area, but that was a big turnoff about it.

The census department doesn't link Austin and San Antonio into one single core based statistical area, but the probably should the way they are spreading out along that I-35 corridor.

San Antonion has about 2.2 million in its metro area. Austin has about 1.8 million. Combined that is about 4.0 million people.

That would make it about the 14th largest Metro area in the country behind only: NY, LA, Chic. Dallas-FW, Houston, Philly, DC, Miami, ATL, Boston, San Fran/Oak/SJ, Phoenix, Detroit.

But that area has just the one single major league team: the Spurs.

Jerry Jones has fought long and hard to keep an NFL team out of San Antonio. And he has about 4 million good reasons: that area IS primarily Cowboy country....with a lesser amount toward the Texans. But they would switch allegiances in an instant if they could get their own team.

Yeah that's true. I hear its been getting worse by the day. Tons and tons of people moving to the city.

I was there for a week, maybe 70-80% of who I met aren't from Austin. But it is a college town too, which contributes to that.

There's still a boat load of opportunities there though, for tech especially.

I regret not being able to get to San Antonio while I was down there, just didn't have the time.

@the-gipper said:

The Rock Hall is fine. It is a museum, not a disco. It has what museum's have. Akron and Canton are part of the Greater Cleveland Metropolitan area. Canton is 50 miles from downtown Cleveland. I live right between them.

The larger Cleveland-Akron-Canton Combined Statistical Area is the 15th-largest Combined Statistical Area in the United States, and includes the above counties plus Ashtabula County, Carroll County, Erie County, Huron County, Portage County, Stark County, Summit County, and Tuscarawas County, with a population of 3,515,646.^[2]

The Cleveland-Akron-Canton television Designated Market Area covers this area, and all of Northeast Ohio except for the Youngstown/Warren region. It is the 18th largest in the United States, according to Nielsen Media Research. Changes in house prices for Greater Cleveland are publicly tracked on a regular basis using the CaseShiller index; the statistic is published by Standard & Poor's and is also a component of S&P's 20-city composite index of the value of the U.S. residential real estate market. The Greater Cleveland area is also part of the larger Great Lakes Megalopolis

You are correct in that the rock hall is fine BUT its stupidly overpriced. I didn't realize canton was a part of greater Cleveland. My bad.

@the-gipper said:

I was raised in Cleveland until 10 years old (W.47 and Storer Ave.). Then we moved to Parma Heights until I left for the military.

@bbedward said:

Austin is becoming a pretty big congested mess. My daughter is in school in San Antonio, so I know. When I was taking her to school a couple of years ago we ended up in essentially a parking lot on I-35 in Austin. I do like the area, but that was a big turnoff about it.

The census department doesn't link Austin and San Antonio into one single core based statistical area, but the probably should the way they are spreading out along that I-35 corridor.

San Antonion has about 2.2 million in its metro area. Austin has about 1.8 million. Combined that is about 4.0 million people.

That would make it about the 14th largest Metro area in the country behind only: NY, LA, Chic. Dallas-FW, Houston, Philly, DC, Miami, ATL, Boston, San Fran/Oak/SJ, Phoenix, Detroit.

But that area has just the one single major league team: the Spurs.

Jerry Jones has fought long and hard to keep an NFL team out of San Antonio. And he has about 4 million good reasons: that area IS primarily Cowboy country....with a lesser amount toward the Texans. But they would switch allegiances in an instant if they could get their own team.

@vagitron said:

The Rock Hall is fine. It is a museum, not a disco. It has what museum's have. Akron and Canton are part of the Greater Cleveland Metropolitan area. Canton is 50 miles from downtown Cleveland. I live right between them.

The larger Cleveland-Akron-Canton Combined Statistical Area is the 15th-largest Combined Statistical Area in the United States, and includes the above counties plus Ashtabula County, Carroll County, Erie County, Huron County, Portage County, Stark County, Summit County, and Tuscarawas County, with a population of 3,515,646.^[2]

The Cleveland-Akron-Canton television Designated Market Area covers this area, and all of Northeast Ohio except for the Youngstown/Warren region. It is the 18th largest in the United States, according to Nielsen Media Research. Changes in house prices for Greater Cleveland are publicly tracked on a regular basis using the Case–Shiller index; the statistic is published by Standard & Poor's and is also a component of S&P's 20-city composite index of the value of the U.S. residential real estate market. The Greater Cleveland area is also part of the larger Great Lakes Megalopolis

@the-cysko-kid said:

As I noted above, the population of Cleveland proper is 396K. The population of Pittsburgh is 306 K.

But the NEOtropolis is about 3.5 million(includes Akron and Canton). And the Pittsburgh metro area is about 2.6 million.

How many who post here have actually ever lived inside the confines of Cleveland city proper?

I can raise my hand as I lived in Cleveland proper for 3 years while in law school. On North Moreland by Shaker Square (which is in Cleveland). But if I walked out my front door and went one block around the corner I would have been in Shaker Hts.

But, I am not from Cleveland, and I didn't stay living in Cleveland, but Cleveland is still the core of the economy/culture in Northeast Ohio.

This is the their trademark across the board I guess. Stoolers fans have delusions about their team and their city.

I'm the same way as Cysko Kid. I couldn't stand to live on the side of a mountain either. Not my cup of tea.

@vagitron said:

The rock hall is overpriced and overrated honestly. The pro football hall of fame is in canton, definitely not Cleveland. Canton is an hour or better from Cleveland.

I may have an unpopular opinion around here, but I have no problem with the city of Pittsburgh. Main reason I wouldn't live there is the landscape, lack of my career interests, etc. And it still doesn't feel right being from Cleveland.

I almost took an internship there (PPG) and I have a very good friend out there.

Steeler fans I've met out there were actually pretty polite.

My biggest problem is the inbred goons that live all over the place and in Ohio. Lots of ignorant jerkoffs who talk but have no idea what they're talking about. I can't even understand them sometimes.

Bengal fans are almost just as bad as the Ohio born Pittsburgh fans I encounter though.

I have a "friend"/acquaintence who lives and was born here in Toledo that I invited out to watch a game. Dude didn't show up until after the game just to annoy the crap out of everyone. I told him he was a big fat pussy and to drink beer somewhere else.

My personal hot spot is Austin, Texas.

Low cost of living, tons to do, booming, loads of well paying tech jobs (I'm a software engineer)

But that's just me, Pitt fans that come to this board seem to be of the bad type. Luckily I didn't encounter any of those while I was visiting Pittsburgh.

@bbedward said:

Yes. A lot of the suburbs make a super easy trip downtown though, which is nice.

Downtown is a nice place to be, so are some of the surrounding areas like Lakewood if you're looking for a fun time (Lakewood is a decent place to live if you're 18-30 IMO. Some of the near neighborhoods have gone downhill though. Just a lot of not caring for the older properties. I grew up in Old Brooklyn, albeit I'm not that old, but that's a neighborhood that isn't all that terrible - but most of the properties are worth dirt now and that caused a lot of trashier people to move into the area. I definitely wouldn't live there nowadays myself though.

Parma's been going downhill as well.

Regardless most people live in a surrounding burb and commute probably 20-40 minutes if they work within the city.

Cleveland advantages over Pittsburgh off the top of my head:

- Hospitals

- Museums (I mean, you have the rock & roll, art museum, football HOF nearby)

- Lake

- More fortune 500 companies

- Playhouse Square

- Better food (In my opinion)

- Better beer (This one's actually a fact)

I have nothing against Pittsburgh as a city. I've been there a few teams and have had a really good time every time. My biggest problems are getting around the city which I find to be a PITA compared to Cleveland and living on a cliff.

Only thing I have against Pittsburgh is people who act like these goons. But I guess you find that anywhere.

The rock hall is overpriced and overrated honestly. The pro football hall of fame is in canton, definitely not Cleveland. Canton is an hour or better from Cleveland.

@the-cysko-kid said:

Yes. A lot of the suburbs make a super easy trip downtown though, which is nice.

Downtown is a nice place to be, so are some of the surrounding areas like Lakewood if you're looking for a fun time (Lakewood is a decent place to live if you're 18-30 IMO. Some of the near neighborhoods have gone downhill though. Just a lot of not caring for the older properties. I grew up in Old Brooklyn, albeit I'm not that old, but that's a neighborhood that isn't all that terrible - but most of the properties are worth dirt now and that caused a lot of trashier people to move into the area. I definitely wouldn't live there nowadays myself though.

Parma's been going downhill as well.

Regardless most people live in a surrounding burb and commute probably 20-40 minutes if they work within the city.

Cleveland advantages over Pittsburgh off the top of my head:

- Hospitals

- Museums (I mean, you have the rock & roll, art museum, football HOF nearby)

- Lake

- More fortune 500 companies

- Playhouse Square

- Better food (In my opinion)

- Better beer (This one's actually a fact)

I have nothing against Pittsburgh as a city. I've been there a few teams and have had a really good time every time. My biggest problems are getting around the city which I find to be a PITA compared to Cleveland and living on a cliff.

Only thing I have against Pittsburgh is people who act like these goons. But I guess you find that anywhere.

Formerly Sane said:

As one would expect, if The Gipper said it, it's probably a crock of hooey. Take a look at the statistics on City Data.com for the two cities and see the distinct difference in education level, income, home values, crime,etc. and the truth is easy to see. You will see that despite a higher number of police per capita, Cleveland's crime rate is over twice that of Pittsburgh's.

Now I'm sure that like a good Browns fan you will all assume that Pittsburgh pays the web site and the web site is stupid blah blah blah.

But who am I to judge, maybe some of you like a city with high crime, low income and low education, to each his own

To be fair most of the population that claims Cleveland as home don't live in Cleveland but the suburbs. I live 40 or so miles west in Amherst. Travelling Cleveland extensively for work has led me to authoritatively say Cleveland is a shithole. But I'd still rather be here than the burgh which I just plain out hate. I could not exist on the side of a mountain. It's not for me. At least we have the lake and it is beautiful out west here.

http://www.pittsburghese.com/

Formerly Sane said:

Yinzers deal is dat youze talk like yinses brains have been all squarshed. I mean its like yer ignernt. Airyago.

Bowchyins. Now go ghost afore I cutcher nuts half in two.

Formerly Sane said:

Your point you each making being that people from Pittsburgh have difficulty speaking English?

I agree with you. He made that point very well.

Formerly Sane said:

Odd that you think that Pittsburgh has all those statistical advantages, yet Pittsburgh has been losing a greater percentage of its population than Cleveland has for decades now.

So whatever you think is happening, people in that town are voting with their feet to leave.