Define sucks?

Aaron Rodgers stats the first 3 seasons.

7 games played

35 completed passes

69 passing attempts

1 td

1 int

If you were trying to post a link...it didn't work.

There.

I did it.

2 superbowl MVP and future HoF that sucked in their first 3 seasons.

He was cut from those 3 teams?

He was cut from those 3 teams?

Just so I'm clear... according to you what will it judge each of us upon?

OK: One guy who was with 3 teams before he either made the Pro Bowl or lead his team to a postseason appearance:

Rich Gannon

He was with Minnesota, Kansas City and Washington. Never made the playoffs, never made a Pro Bowl. At age 34 he went to Oakland, made the Pro Bowl the next 4 years, and in 3 of those years he took his team to the playoffs, including one Super Bowl appearance....a loss.

If Hoyer sucks and Manziel is as good as advertised, everyone except Stockton is going to hell.

Just so I'm clear... according to you what will it judge each of us upon?

Ok but now that Hoyer was looked at, evaluated and cut by 3 teams mean nothing to you? You think that happens a lot to future HOFers? How about to future QBs that lead their team to the playoffs?

You can point to all the outliers you want and say "See the NFL isn't perfect" but they're pretty damn close to it. They get it right far more than they get it wrong. ESPECIALLY with veterans. The draft is more tricky, but when a guys been in the league for 5 years and 3 different teams cut him, that's a pretty good sign.

I think you're far too biased to have a reasonable conversation. Brian Sipe in the Top 5 of all time? Of what?

Teams are wrong about QBs 50% of of the time? Did you seriously just write that?

When it comes to drafting QBs in the first round? Absofuckinglutely. It is a fact. Check the record. I don't have the time or energy to list everyone from Akili Smith to Matt Leinert to Jamarcus Russell to Blain Gabbert to Brady Quinn to Brandon Weeden....etc. etc. etc.

How about all the QBs that don't get drafted, and those who get cut and those who never start a game and are never heard from again? Was the NFL wrong about them? Half of them?

Now you are just being obtuse.

Just because QBs bust sometimes, doesn't mean decisions about QBs are wrong often. Infact you could say teams are wrong about DRAFTING QBs, but very rarely are the wrong about QBs that have been evaluated for a few seasons. Those they're pretty accurate about.

Well, I don't know.....when it comes to the Browns I would say that yes, those QB that have been evaluated for a few seasons have still been misses for the Browns.

Can you say Jeff Garcia? Trent Dilfer? Jake Delhomme? Jason Campbell? Seneca Wallace? On and on and on.....veteran QBs who were brought in here to turn things around and get the Browns to start winning? They ALL just sucked. Hell, Hoyer could join that list.

NFL teams miss quite regularly on drafted QBs and FA QBs. And sometimes they do hit. (just not the Browns)

Heres a challenge, find me how many NFL QBs were cut by 3 different teams BEFORE making a Pro Bowl. Or even before they started a season and led a team to the playoffs. Find me how many times 3 teams were all wrong about a QB.

Like the Army...you propose a proposition....you are responsible for it.

But I know a couple right off the top of my head.....maybe not 3 teams....but a couple:

Len Dawson....cut by both Browns and Steelers....HOF for the Chiefs.

Steve Young....LA Express, Tampa Bay Bucs.

Bobby Layne....with Bears, NY Bulldogs beforing making playoffs, winning titles with Lions

Others were let go after a few stints before making it big:

Unitas, cut by Steelers

Favre, traded by Falcons

And FYI.....it may NOT be a matter of a team being wrong about a QB......it could be all about fit in a system.....or a learning curve....or having maturity.

PS- AND HOLD ON.....did you just say that Everyone has Kurt Warner and Brian Sipe on their top 5 QBs of all time? Is this real life?

Don't read so good.....or else this is another area where you are uniformed about football.

Now.....I said a third rounder in 1979.....and a sixth rounder in 2000 are the guys considered to be in the Top 5 of all time.

Now....who do you think I was talking about in those instances.

Teams are wrong about QBs 50% of of the time? Did you seriously just write that?

How about all the QBs that don't get drafted, and those who get cut and those who never start a game and are never heard from again? Was the NFL wrong about them? Half of them? Just because QBs bust sometimes, doesn't mean decisions about QBs are wrong often. Infact you could say teams are wrong about DRAFTING QBs, but very rarely are the wrong about QBs that have been evaluated for a few seasons. Those they're pretty accurate about.

Heres a challenge, find me how many NFL QBs were cut by 3 different teams BEFORE making a Pro Bowl. Or even before they started a season and led a team to the playoffs. Find me how many times 3 teams were all wrong about a QB.

PS- AND HOLD ON.....did you just say that Everyone has Kurt Warner and Brian Sipe on their top 5 QBs of all time? Is this real life?

It doesn't matter what you think....or what I think. It only matters what happens.

Before it happened no one would ever have said "Jim Plunkett will win two Super Bowls"......or...actually, they probably did say that. Jim Plunkett, after all, was only the #1 overall pick of the draft.

No one would have said "Brian Sipe....a 13th round pick will be league MVP"

No one would have said "Kurt Warner, grocery bagger, Arena League player, will become NFL MVP".

No one would have said "Tom Brady, 6th round pick....will never become league MVP. Spergon Wynn who was drafted ahead of Brady is more likely to become an MVP".

In other words you....and particulary YOU....cannot predict anything simply because you believe something.

Lots of people that were supposed to be great weren't.....and lots of people that weren't supposed to be great were.

If anyone said Johnny is going to win NFL MVP this year, I would consider that nonsensical.

But once again this has nothing to do with Manziel. Its has everything to do with Hoyer and how much people overvalue him. Manziel might suck, don't know yet. I bet by year 5 we'll have a pretty good idea if he's a star or not.

Just discussing Hoyer, I am saying he's not a great QB. He's not Warner or Sipe, he won't be Plunkett or NFL MVP. He's exactly what they said in that NFL article

"Hoyer is what we thought he was: a very good backup with little upside as a starter."

That's reality. There seems to be some around here that has lost grip with reality and turned Hoyer into something he's never even shown a glimpse of.

@stocktonshorts said:

What if Brian Hoyer breaks Peyton Mannings TD record this year

What if Brian Hoyer decides to be a running QB and leads the league in rushing?

What if Brian Hoyer never throws an incomplete pass this year?

We can talk about all these what ifs, along with yours. All equally nonsensical.

It is not nonsensical, it is highly speculative. Learn to know the difference. Brian Sipe was a 13th round draft pick that became league MVP. Kurt Warner was a UDFA that won league MVP. Brian Hoyer, like them could possibly become league MVP. It is possible because it has happened before. Something nonsensical is something that never has and never could happen. This could theoretically.

You're going to have to comes to terms with the reality that Brian Hoyer isn't a great QB. I'm fully aware that you're not coming to terms with that idea right now, but eventually you're going to have to deal with it.

I don't have to come to terms with it....or deal with it.....because, like Tommy Lee Jones "I don't care". but I can speculate about the possibility because I am a fan and can do what I damn well please. If Hoyer flops, no big deal, we got JFF.

It is a bigger deal if JFF flops. A lot more is expected out of him, but virtue of his draft status and his notoriety.

There's mountains of evidence that Hoyer isn't a great QB. It's all over. There's a reason why he's on his 4th team and currently in the middle of a battle with a Rookie QB. NFL people agree with me on this one. They love his personality, they love his quick release, they don't like his arm and they don't like his accuracy. NFL.com just had an article ranking backup QBs and Hoyer came in 10th. He's three spots behind Shaun Hill for crying out loud.

Again, I don't care what "people" or what some websites say about him. I only care that he performs well and wins. Nothing else really matters.

And if he don't get it done....so be it. I ain't gonna cry you a river. I ain't invested in him.

On the other hand, you seem to be fully invested in JFF. You are the one that will be crying the river about it if he flops. Because I ain't invested in him either. If neither Hoyer nor JFF get it done, then I will move on.....to Connor Shaw....or Mariota or Winston or Joe Blow.

Will you?

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000377086/article/ranking-all-32-backup-quarterbacks

That's how people in the NFL view Brian Hoyer. The Browns themselves drafted a QB in the first round because they believe the same things about Brian Hoyer. Not the answer. Not going to be NFL MVP. Not Brian Sipe or Kurt Warner. Has a NFL team been wrong about a player before? Yup. But they're right 99.9% of the time. Don't point out the .1% and tell me they're equal.

You really are not a football fan are you? You really know nothing about football history do you?

NFL teams are wrong about QBs about 50% of the time. Just look back at the last 10-15 years of first round QBs.....and notice how many are busts.....It has to approach 50%. Let's see, 2007, first two QBs taken....Jamarcus Russell #1 overall......Brady Quinn, Browns trade up to get hm at #22......where are those careers.?

I don't claim that Hoyer will be MVP, I am only saying that such a thing is possible because, like your example of Warner and Sipe, it has been done. And don't forget a couple other guys NFL people were wrong on.....like that 6th rounder #199 in 2000. Or that third rounder in 1979. Each definitely on anyone's list of the 5 greatest QBs of all time. So it works both ways. A Superstar can come from humble origins.

Brian Hoyer isn't going to be NFL MVP. I'd love to be pimps from Oakland or cowboys from Arizona, but it's not Halloween. Grow up Peter Pan, Count Chocula.

Chances are you will be right....but it won't really make you any less of a dumbass.