@d-bone said:

After 3 weeks, the Browns have the NFL's 31st ranked defense................... Wow.

In YPG, yes, but to me it's more about how we're near the bottom in YPG. Being 28th against the run and 26th against the pass is a double barreled fail.

Some of the early ranking is luck of the draw as to who you play. We've drawn three pretty good pass offenses, and the Steelers and Saints had respectable running games to boot. But the Ravens? Minus Rice and Pierce? That gets my "............Wow".

Well at least we are only 24th in PPG... nothing to brag about, but better than 31st.

@cbus-brownie said:

OK, what DID HAPPEN is West moved on a 30 yard completion to Manziel, Cundiff doinked a 50 yard FG, and had another one blocked. Then a third down incompletion with 2 minutes left had it been complete would have won the game. Yup, all Joe's fault.

@d-bone said:

That is very true. Good point.

I think Joe does better against bigger receivers. He is very physical. He gets them off their rhythm. Smaller, quicker receivers give him more problems.

The new emphasis on not being handsy is hurting Joe. He is not a quick-footed guy. He relies on his hands. This rule enforcement takes away some of his effectiveness, and fortunately, he is getting away w/more than most because of his rep.

I think the guy is okay, but he isn't even close to deserving the top CB money in the NFL. That is a freaking joke.

Even with that sieve of a unit, we are 2 plays away from being 3-0. Before the season, most of us were stressing the QB and WR positions and didn't even think twice about the D....... Go figure.

@hoorta said:

We're a couple of play away from being 3-0. Browns convert on that 3rd and seven, and we're not having this discussion. Yes, Haden has been uncharacteristically bad so far. Putting him solo on Graham in the Saints game was a mismatch- and I dare anyone to tell me otherwise. OK, he's given up some big plays- so does ever other CB.

We're s couple plays away from being 0-3, too. Lets stop talking about what could've happened and focus on what DID HAPPEN.

@walterwhite said:

No goofy, its about a top 5 elite CB who got...

If you're going to resort to name calling, at least get original...

@thenew23 said:

"League's worst QBR 'when targeted'"??

I'm actually curious to see how many times he's been targeted compared to the NFL average. I haven't been able to find that stat, but that is the one that shows how good a "man coverage" corner actually is. If you're only targeted 5 times a game, but give up 4 catches that isn't that bad. TDs are the killer, and he's given up 2 to Graham which I'm sure hurts the stat-line...

Worst in the NFL?? LOL

I'm actually curous about the same state for Gilbert. He hasn't been thrown at that much, but when he's been challenged deep he's been beaten...

Comparing CBs is difficult because you can't watch them every play on TV...

Only one I that currently does what I think you're asking is ProFootballFocus, but it is a pay site (see below).

I think another site does similar stuff, but doesn't start until there's more data... week six or so. It may even be NFL.com as they wait for data accumulation for some stats.

Sportingcharts.com does little data manipulation, but provides raw player data that can feed analyses, e.g., player snap counts. Haden has only missed 2 of 209 so far; Gilbert has only played 120. Same for stats.washingtonpost.com.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/about/pff-signature-stats/#Coverage

"Coverage (3-4OLB, 4-3OLB, ILB/MLB, CB, S)

Reputation can scare opponents from challenging certain defenders, or it can put a target on the back of a cover man. That reputation can be well deserved or the product of unfounded hype. In order to cut through the noise, you need to see the numbers. This set of Signature Stats tallies all things coverage related, from snaps spent in coverage to Yards After the Catch on completions aimed at each defender.

The numbers for all linebackers and defensive backs when deemed the primary cover man are here and they add up to some never-before-seen measures (Yards Per Cover Snap, Cover Snaps Per Target, and Cover Snaps Per Reception) that will help you sort out who’s getting the job done. To top it all off, as we did with the WR Rating, we’ve back-calculated the Passer Rating opponents produce when throwing at each defender."

I'm actually curious to see how many times he's been targeted compared to the NFL average. I haven't been able to find that stat, but that is the one that shows how good a "man coverage" corner actually is. If you're only targeted 5 times a game, but give up 4 catches that isn't that bad. TDs are the killer, and he's given up 2 to Graham which I'm sure hurts the stat-line...

Worst in the NFL?? LOL

I'm actually curous about the same state for Gilbert. He hasn't been thrown at that much, but when he's been challenged deep he's been beaten...

Comparing CBs is difficult because you can't watch them every play on TV...

Paid 60 million dollars and is dead last in the NFL.

You don't get paid 60 million and quit playing.

@walterwhite said:

So wow even Mike Pettine acknowledges he's getting burnt and the stats and numbers support my claim but somehow I'm still wrong. I hate to say it but I told you so.

I love Joe but he has to fix this shit quick.

And now you love Joe?

With you its not about being right or wrong, it's about your knee-jerk, reactionary tirades that lack depth, conviction and longevity.

Case in point... according to you all we need to do to fix Haden is cut his pay. Did Pettine say that as well?

@logicisforsquares said:

I guess it depends on the player. I imagine some players will get butthurt over getting called out publicly for poor play. Others will likely use it as motivation to not suck.

I like accountability so long as Pettine realizes it goes both ways.

All true...

I'm not too concerned about Pettine holding himself accountable. Not sensing a reality gap there...

I am somewhat concerned that he talks about players fairly freely to the press, but apparently reserves details of his staff criticism for meetings. Other than the following any knowledge of his reported staff reaming seems to have come from source leaks.

"'I thought for the bulk of it the players played well enough to have a victory. I put this one on me. We didn’t coach well enough to win today. I’m not going to get into too much of the specifics until I get a chance to go through it. The list is long,' Pettine said, via the Cleveland Plain Dealer."

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/09/22/pettine-blames-himself-for-browns-loss/

I like accountability so long as Pettine realizes it goes both ways.

@hoorta said:

Yes. Just wish it wasn't on such game winning critical plays.

@logicisforsquares said:

It appears that Pettine will be the type of coach who calls players out for bad play.

Are you saying this as a good or bad thing?

Thats unacceptable and even Pettine knows it.

in the preseason.

Come on, man.

@hoorta said:

We're a couple of play away from being 3-0. Browns convert on that 3rd and seven, and we're not having this discussion. Yes, Haden has been uncharacteristically bad so far. Putting him solo on Graham in the Saints game was a mismatch- and I dare anyone to tell me otherwise. OK, he's given up some big plays- so does ever other CB.

Joe Haden got paid 60 million dollars and is a bottom teir starter right now. He's playing like a 60 dollar CB.

Yes we got it that all CB's get beat but he's been dogshit so far this year.

I love Joe but he has to fix this shit quick.

@tml1138 said:

We're a couple of play away from being 3-0. Browns convert on that 3rd and seven, and we're not having this discussion. Yes, Haden has been uncharacteristically bad so far. Putting him solo on Graham in the Saints game was a mismatch- and I dare anyone to tell me otherwise. OK, he's given up some big plays- so does ever other CB.

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2014/09/mike_pettine_on_joe_hadens_str.html#incart_social_feature

Mike Pettine on Joe Haden's struggles: 'The great ones make plays when it's needed'

And I'm not sure why Flacco had better success against the 12th man than Brees did...other than my guess is NO didn't realize what they were in for, and BLT learned from their problems.

afcnorthravensfan509 said:

That last play was just (Flacco) reading the coverage and calling the perfect audible to the coverage Haden was playing. (Flacco) gambled and won. Had (Flacco) lost and Haden been expecting a slant and go it could have been a pick and game over. You win some you lose some.

Edited for simplicity since there are two Joes in your tale...

Best I can tell in the play the coverage Haden was in was man-press. Never saw where our Safeties were, but since they usually dictate coverage reads, (Flacco) must have known neither would be in position to help over the top.

Given that the Ravens:

- only needed 15 yds to be within FG range;

- had just run a 5-yd pass play; and

- had 1:28 to get in FG range;

... it is not surprising if our D was hedging towards shorter passes.

Smith Sr's route as I remember it was a stop and go. Looked like the mirror image of what Torry ran a year ago(?) that burned Haden for a game winning TD. Both times (Flacco) made his best throw of the game.

Don't know how much longer my ticker can take it, but these games have been fun to watch and exciting. Offense looks so much better, consistently better even, than it has in years. The problems the Browns are having right now with DEF and ST can be fixed, this year.

And at least we didn't have a game like Tampa Bay did vs Atlanta....

@walterwhite said:

It just pisses me off how well Fuller, Roby, and Dennard are playing good and drafted after Gilbert.

Fuller and Roby are the 3rd and 4th corners on their teams. Until Tillman got hurt Fuller occasionally came in on the nickel. Same thing with Roby. You wouldn't be doing 90% of the bitching about Gilbert that you currently are if Trufant was healthy.