@the-gipper said:

Its pretty close....though you know, based on my recollection, I may take Walter Johnson over both those!!

I was thinking the same thing Walter Johnson was a stud.

@ballpeen said:

Its pretty close....though you know, based on my recollection, I may take Walter Johnson over both those!!

@howiedawg said:

Nice research Howie for a guy that came late to the game and probably wasn't alive to see that game...at least in the UK. (I was alive to see it.)

Career weighted AV: 45

8 seasons total: 5 AZ, 3 CLE

1994 thru 2001

Made Pro Bowl in 2001.

In his 3 seasons with us he missed 1 game in year 1.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MillJa01.htm

Per his wiki page he blew out his Achilles in a 2002 pre-season game. Spent 2002 on IR and was cut after season ended.

@clevfan4life said:

Maybe it was two years. But it wasn't very long. Not long enough to get him on the Top Ten career wise list.

Though....if Kameron Wimbley can be on the Top Ten of DEs.....??? I think it just shows that the Browns have really been weak at that position over the years. The same can be said for a couple of other positions....Linebacker is one. If Jamir had lasted another year or two without injury he probably could have cracke the Top Ten

FYI, Jamir would have been #17 on the LB list above. The Top 15 are listed there. Bob Babich is #16, Miller #17...with only 3 years of play.

D'Qwell is the only other LB who has played since 1999 who ranks above Jamir.

@the-gipper said:

It is a total career production stat. While Jamir had a good year once, that was about it....one good year.

Here's a pretty good read from 2006...

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/04/sports/football/04giants.html?fta=y&_r=0

Love the comments and work of Jim Turney.

As the Hall of Fame defensive end Deacon Jones once reportedly said, "Since when does 'all-time' begin in 1982?"

The issue has long annoyed Jones, and long fascinated Turney. Since 1993, Turney has pored over play-by-play accounts of games played decades ago, adding up sacks that no one had counted before. He studied game tape at N.F.L. Films to fill gaps in the data.

The research never ends; Turney occasionally catches a replay of an old game on television and wonders if a sack that he sees was recorded. He goes and checks.

In a telephone interview Friday, Turney said he had 'no beef" with starting in 1982.

"I dont know why they won't grandfather folks in who were playing in 1981," he said. "You can find sacks back to 1970 in a very accurate way."

For example, Turney has calculated that Jones, whose career ended in 1974, had 173.5 sacks, and the longtime Rams defensive end Jack Youngblood had 151.5 .

@mudfly said:

Two points: This is a career production number. Yes, a guy like Clay Matthews, if he is any good, and who played for like 20 years is going to surpass the number that a Jim Brown had in only a 9 year career. (of course, note that Clay only had a 2 pt. edge on JB despite a career twice the length likely).

Also....as I said before, I am not sure the sack number enhance this number over the career of a guy who played when the sack stat was kept. ...so I don't know if we can go there.

For example, I loved Clay Mathews, but there is no way he was the best player the Browns ever had....rated above Jim Brown?....really?

Mathews(like Sherk) is another one of those who didn't get the full accounting for his sacks.....I can't remember when they started counting(82-83?), but it was well into his career....think he got jipped out about 4 or 5 years worth....

@tour2ma said:

Maybe, but there is no sack data for the likes of Paul Wiggin, Bob Gain, Jim Houston, Walter Johnson yet there scores are high up there. Yea, I cannot explain the math. I suspect there is some explanation on the PFR site.....but at this point it seems a possible thumb nail stat. Not absolute, but somewhat useful.

I believe, if you look at who had the highest per season average you would likely come up with the fact that one Mr. Jim Brown takes that cake, but I am not sure.

The pinball stats that recent QBs put up probably vastly increase their production numbers. I do believe that the guys that are #1 and #2 on this career list are Brett Favre and Peyton Manning. Both with obviously long productive careers.

The guys with the top single seasons though are: LaDanian Tomlinson 2006, Marshall Faulk 1999, and OJ Simpson 1975.

Here is the link to the all time career leaders:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/av_career.htm

@the-gipper said:

Yes, that is it, I believe.

Paul Warfield 75 (Browns only stats)

So if Browns' longevity is key... maybe too much so, e.g., Paul Warfield's Overall Career number is 106, then games in a season might be too significant a factor as well.

Also Michael Dean Perry a 78 vs. Jerry Sherk at 55? Appears that Jerry gets penalized because there is no sack data for his career.

@clevfan4life said:

It is a total career production stat. While Jamir had a good year once, that was about it....one good year.

@tour2ma said:

Yes, that is it, I believe. It supposedly is a number at which you can compare the productivity of all players against each other regardless of position. I am certain that this statistic is not infallible....and don't ask me how they mathematically arrive at these numbers. Suffice it to say it is the one thing that seeming allows comparison between all positions and all eras.....though of course the stat has not been applied to earlier times....pre-1960ish...or at least mid 50s.

If there is a better stat out there that can do the job of this better, I am more than interested in hearing about it.

As noted, it is a career stat.....and a cumulative stat, but it is also broken down by years for each player. Here is the link to the Browns players relative to that statistic.

Here are the Browns with the highest overall Career Production Average, regardless of position (anyone with a 75 or above score):

Clay Matthews 124

Jim Brown 122

Dick Shafrath 115

GEne Hickerson 111

Leroy Kelly 102

Doug Dieken 92

Brian Sipe 88

Gary Collins 87

Frank Ryan 80

Hanford Dixon 80

Cody Risien 78

Greg Pruitt 78

Jim Houston 78

Michael Dean Perry 78

Clarence Scott 78

Ozzie Newsome 77

Walter Johnson 76

Bernie Kosar 75

Paul Warfield 75 (Browns only stats)

@the-gipper said:

I think there may have been a DB named Fisk

A Jason Fisk played NT for us in '05...

Is the "stat" you are using PFR's Weighted Career thing?

@nickers said:

I think there may have been a DB named Fisk

Zombo said:

Well, a Nose Tackle is kind of a DT. That is what PFR had him as.

But what "stats"?

Zombo

Nose Tackle:

1. Bob Golic

2. Henry Bradley

3. Dave Puzzouli

4. Ted Washington

5. Tim Goad

6. Jerry Ball

Defensive Tackle

1. Michael Dean Perry

2. Walter Johnson

3. Jerry Sherk

4. Orpheous Roye

5. Bob Gain

6. Jim Kanicki

7. Ahtyba Rubin

Defensive Ends:

1. Bill Glass

2. Paul Wiggin

3. Rob Burnett

4. Carl Hairston

5. Anthony Pleasant

6. Jack Gregory

7. Joe "Turkey" Jones

8. Reggie Camp

9. Kameron Wimbley

10. Kenard Lang

Linebacker (no differention between inside and outside..thus I am doing top 15)

1.Clay Matthews

2. Jim Houston

3. Charlie Hall

4. Mike Johnson

5. Chip Banks

6. DQwell Jackson

7. Vince Costello

8. Dick Ambrose

9. Galen Fiss

10. Andra Davis

11. Eddie Johnson

12. John Garlington

13. Billy Andrews

14. Dale Lindsey

15. Tom Cousineau

Defensive Backs (no differention between corner and safety, thus I am doing Top 15):

1. Hanford Dixon

2. Clarence Scott

3. Frank Minnifield

4. Thom Darden

5. Bernie Parrish

6. Ben Davis

7. Mike Howell

8. Ross Fichtner

9. Daylon McCutcheon

10. Eric Turner

11. Erich Barnes

12. Walt Sumner

13. Ron Bolton

14. Jim Shofner

15. Bobby Franklin/John Kellerman tie

Of course, the question is: how well have the Browns done over the years at getting top notch pros at each position. And I think, not that great really. There are 2 HOF RBs, 1 HOF WR, 1 HOF TE, 2 HOF OG.

And other than Ozzie Newsome no others were drafted by the Browns since 1964...when Warfield and Kelly were both taken.

The one guy that I believe is HOF caliber that is retired is Dick Shafrath. (He actually had a more productive career than Hickerson). And maybe Clay Matthews...but I doubt either will get in. Other than Joe Thomas is anyone else on any of these lists going to warrant HOF consideration. I would say no.

And note this: there is no DT/DE/LB/DB...in other words, no defensive player who served the majority of his career with the Browns for like the last 60 years that is HOF Caliber. All of the HOFers are on offense...and the guy most recently inducted spent more of his career with the Bills. And on offense, other than Joe D. only Ozzie Newsome has played with the Browns much past 1970.