@topdawg31 said:

Getting better each week? Are you actually watching? He has been getting worse with each passing week. He's been winning so it overshadows his shit ty play. All the reason to stay with him.

From my O-line Review this week... just for you, TD...

@tour2ma said:

Weekly Special Request: From me: Break Down Hoyer's Footwork...

Don't jump out of your chair and down my throat, but I think ATL was Hoyer's best game in a while... mechanically. It felt that way watching the game and damned if it doesn't seem true upon further review. I hedge only because I have not formerly broken down BH's game before.

Thus week I added a "Hoyer footwork note" to every pass play. On every drop back pass I noted the step relationship of BH's feet at release and the "authority" of the pass. For the step I use analog clock dial, e.g., 12:00 being straight ahead and 09:00 being a complete bail.

On roll outs Brian always ended up jumping into the air. Especially on plays where he is running parallel to or away from the LOS. On these I noted last foot on the ground at release as it does vary. The one, late "scramble" when he was moving towards the LOS he strode forward as one would expect.

For all plays I rated "throw authority": a check (C ) meant a tight, "authoritative" spiral on a good line; an 'O' meant good pass but with noticeably less zip; and 'X' meant weak, wobbler. And, of course, I also noted throw result.

Here's the breakdown:

Dropbacks: Total 36

12-6 w/ 4C&2O; 1130-12 w/ 9C&2O&1X; 11-6 w/ 5C&1X;

1030-3 w/ 2C&1O; 10-2 w/ 2O; 09-7 w/ 2C&1O&4X

Of the 24 throws striding to 1100 or later, Brian threw 18 tight balls , 4 OKs (O) and 2 weaklings (X).

For the 18 C's he was 13/18. For the 4 O's he was 1/4 w/ 1INT. For the 2 X's he was 0/2.

Of the 12 throws when he "stepped in the bucket" (remember Vic Davalillo?) or strode to 1030 or earlier, he went 6/12 w/ 4C (4/4), 4O (2/4), & 4X (0/4 w/2 INT).

Rolls/Flushed runs: Total 6

Roll Left: RightFoot- 1C, LeftFoot- 1O ; MoveUp: RF- 1C, LF- none

Roll Right: RF- 2C, LF- 1X

Small sample size, but when throwing off his right ("back") foot Brian threw 4 quality passes in 4 attempts. The results of these 4 were 4 completions for +15, +5, +7 and +24 yards. Off his left ("Front") foot he threw 1 C, completed for 9, and 1 O, a weak, high incompletion in Gordo's direction.

Get over it, he brought the team back and got an important win. Hoyer is a winner and will get better each week. He is the best QB the Browns have had since returning in 1999. Give it a rest already and take the time to smell the 7-4 roses. Ghoolie

**********************************************

Nailed it.

@playgroundlegend said:

You see.. this is why this place is just ignorant. Animals throwing crap.

Wouldnt we WANT (JM) to be everything he showed he could be?

Wouldnt we be inclined to see the glass half full?

No... You have to set your inclinations aside. We need to see the glass for what it is. It's called objectivity.

Not easy for we mere fans...

@texaskevin06 said:

I would rather be a JM Fag then a Browns fan so desperate for a winning season they are too afraid to change anything.

Talk about your false choices...

@mikethomas777 said:

I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. I'm sure Thomas would be behind Manziel if Hoyer got hurt.

I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. Just because they are behind Hoyer doesn't mean they wouldn't be behind Manziel if Hoyer got injured. The fact is Manziel doesn't get the reps in practice that Hoyer gets and no matter how shitty Hoyer plays in practice and/or how good Manziel plays in practice you can't bench a qb 11 games into a playoff run season.

Kinda lost your way in a quote button double click???

Anyway... I would hope the entire team got behind whomever was their starter. It's called being a Pro.

But that's not the question. The question is "Given the choice which QB would the team rather have lead them?" It's a question to which we will never know the answer.

Doesn't mean we can't speculate...

I suspect you'd see a demographic microcosm of this forum with younger players going for the flashy new model and older vets the older vet...

not that the Browns have any vets as old as ones around here...

excepting maybe McQuistan...

who looked really old against JAX.

VesnaKociper said:

Imagine. Ghoolie, the voice of reason......and he is right.

@playgroundlegend said:

Honestly? 0-3 in the next three games, with blowout losses in all of them. Sorry, but you really have to tone down the JFF man-crush. Bortles, Carr, & Bridgey- a collective 6-27. Your dreamboat JFF is going to ride in on his white horse (and has been pointed out getting scout team reps) and do a whole lot better against the rest of the schedule? Dream on.

Personally, I'd put the odds at 50\50 of Manziel getting the starting nod even if the Browns are 7-8 going into the Ravens game.

@playgroundlegend said:

Honestly though..

what is the level of bad Hoyer would have to play in order for you guys to agree he should be pulled for Johnny.

In all seriousness.. in your honest opinons, what would Hoyer have to do in order for you to approve a change to JFF

He'd have to stop winning really. If he played like he has lately before the bye and we were 1-2 I wouldn't be surprised if he got pulled then. But at 7-4 right in the thick of it, team is behind him, coaches still behind him you don't make the move.

@playgroundlegend said:

My serious and honest opinion is that he would have to get beat out next year to be pulled for Johnny(as the regular starter).

I dont see any acceptable reason to change QB's in the middle of a playoff race. Continuity is everything.

what is the level of bad Hoyer would have to play in order for you guys to agree he should be pulled for Johnny.

In all seriousness.. in your honest opinons, what would Hoyer have to do in order for you to approve a change to JFF

@mikethomas777 said:

Of course Joe and the rest of the team would rally around Manziel- just like the D will rally around Leonard, now that Gipson is out.

You've made my points for me- the glaring reasons why the Manzelots are smoking something if they think tossing JFF out there now is a good idea just because Hoyer has played poorly in the last couple of games.

@westside-steve said:

But, and I hope you realize I'm kind of being the devil's advocate here, what has Brian Hoyer shown anyone in the last years that any of those other quarterbacks didn't show? Yes this season he has been the quarterback of a winning team but not because of any of his own heroics. Yes nice series of downs last week but as we should recall a terrible series a few weeks ago to lose the game. I'm just saying how long does a quarterback get before you are sure he doesn't have the head or the talent for the job?

Devil's Advocate? Really? I'd never do something like that...

First, agree with the underlined completely. Moreover I think that is exactly the QB Pettine wants... non-heroic. A QB that will not cost us a win. I am not sure what "few games ago" game you reference. Both games in which Hoyer has played badly enough to cost us a win ('13 Vikes and '14 ATL), he salvaged with game-winning drives.

Aside: How many "hero" QBs are playing today?

As for length of a QB evaluation... I don't think there's a set answer, but I think in general it takes longer for fans to recognize the presence, or absence, of head talent. Especially when the lack of head talent is masked by physical skill...

He's smart as all get out, he can see that, we'll see

if he can change all that for the better vs buffalo.

@westside-steve said:

But, and I hope you realize I'm kind of being the devil's advocate here, what has Brian Hoyer shown anyone in the last years that any of those other quarterbacks didn't show? Yes this season he has been the quarterback of a winning team but not because of any of his own heroics. Yes nice series of downs last week but as we should recall a terrible series a few weeks ago to lose the game. I'm just saying how long does a quarterback get before you are sure he doesn't have the head or the talent for the job?

WSS

I would debate that, his heroics led the team to that comeback win over Tenn. Also, he did heroically bring us back against the steelers, although we didn't win that one. He does have intangibles that can't be taught. He seems to be s great leader, he is calm under pressure and even when most qbs would try and force things he usually doesn't. He also seems to have a calming influence on the team.

Dunno if those things can make up for his consistently bad accuracy issues though.

@tour2ma said:

Guys... not every intervention works...

Time to let Kevin go.

We tried...

Not seeing Hoyer's best lately... not even sure we have seen it this year. Atop any knee hang over he had a footwork issue emerge. I suspect a reason, but don't for sure. Get it right and Hoyer's best will return. Stay tuned...

Frye clearly did not have a head for the game. Tebow did not have the talent.

McCoy... I honestly believe he has just, finally recovered from his bowl game nerve damage.

WSS

Time to let Kevin go.

We tried...

@westside-steve said:

Of course if you buy into the fact that Brian Hoyer is the hardest working player on the team it's a little disappointing since this is the best you can expect. And we will need better to go to the next level in my opinion. I was kind of hoping he had a little upside left, weren't you guys?

People said that Colt McCoy and Charlie Frye worked hard. And you guys hate them.(not to mention Tim Tebow)

Not seeing Hoyer's best lately... not even sure we have seen it this year. Atop any knee hang over he had a footwork issue emerge. I suspect a reason, but don't for sure. Get it right and Hoyer's best will return. Stay tuned...

Frye clearly did not have a head for the game. Tebow did not have the talent.

McCoy... I honestly believe he has just, finally recovered from his bowl game nerve damage.

*****************************

It would be stupid to yank Hoyer's leadership out from under

this offense.

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/1104136-cleveland-browns-rumors-news-johnny-manziel-brian-hoyer-mike-pettine/

@texaskevin06 said:

Hello...? We have a winning season. Seems like tossing in JM would have been the desperation move.

You're a journeyman Manziel knob slobber who is idiotic, inconsiderate, and delusional. Maybe you build statues of Manziel down in college station because of how amazing he is, but up in Cleveland he isn't even worth printing on toilet paper yet.

Sorry, I just felt like compiling some of your idiocy into 1 post.

@texaskevin06 said:

I would rather be a JM Fag then a Browns fan so desperate for a winning season they are too afraid to change anything.

Jesus christ monkey balls that is moronic on so many levels. Everything you have said thus far is negated by the pure stupidity oozing from that comment. You obviously have very little knowledge of football. Why on earth would a 7-4 team, that just won, and is in the midst of a playoff run, bench their starter for a rookie? Fuck.

Fear? It has nothing to do with fear, it's common sense.

Also, hell yea I'm desperate for a winning season. Try putting your heart and soul into supporting a team that sucks massive donkey balls for 15 years straight and then tell me you aren't desperate for a winning season. I'm loving the shit out of this year and it is fun as hell to have a relevant winning team. So let's throw that down the drain to see what our rookie qb might be able to do, great plan.

I hope JF turns out to be everything you believe he is, but let's give the guy some time, it can only do him good.

@hoorta said:

B already answered that- I know you're visiting from the other board, I know your stance, so I'll try to be civil. Luck is a once in a decade talent like Elway and Manning. Nuff said there. Wilson had the benefit of the best defense since the Super Bowl Ravens to bail him out. RG Knee and Newton are starting to look like one year flash in the pans- hey Derek Anderson had one great year too, no? Washington's trade for Griffin will go down as one of the 3 worst in NFL history- and you can take that to the bank. BTW, Griffin and Manziel do share a trait- lack of accountability for their actions.

You ever see that guys jersey with the 21 Browns qbs since 1999 on the back? Yeah, we traded up to get Quinn too- so tell me how that worked out. So excuse me if I'll believe Manziel is the real deal when I see it.

You may believe putting Manziel in now is a good idea- I say that's nuts. You know who else wans't very good and won a Super Bowl? Trent Dilfer- his career stats mirror Hoyer's. Doug Williams wasn't very good either. Jim McMahon, Jeff Hostetler. I'm going to save myself some time typing and let you peruse the list of lousy quarterbacks that just happened to be good enough to play in a Super Bowl.

http://www.profootballhof.com/history/release.aspx?release_id=97 You've just joined the Fan Boy Club with that statement.

Exactly Joe Thomas and the rest of the team are behind Hoyer- they see JFF every day in practice hmmm.

I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. I'm sure Thomas would be behind Manziel if Hoyer got hurt.

@hoorta said:

B already answered that- I know you're visiting from the other board, I know your stance, so I'll try to be civil. Luck is a once in a decade talent like Elway and Manning. Nuff said there. Wilson had the benefit of the best defense since the Super Bowl Ravens to bail him out. RG Knee and Newton are starting to look like one year flash in the pans- hey Derek Anderson had one great year too, no? Washington's trade for Griffin will go down as one of the 3 worst in NFL history- and you can take that to the bank. BTW, Griffin and Manziel do share a trait- lack of accountability for their actions.

You ever see that guys jersey with the 21 Browns qbs since 1999 on the back? Yeah, we traded up to get Quinn too- so tell me how that worked out. So excuse me if I'll believe Manziel is the real deal when I see it.

You may believe putting Manziel in now is a good idea- I say that's nuts. You know who else wans't very good and won a Super Bowl? Trent Dilfer- his career stats mirror Hoyer's. Doug Williams wasn't very good either. Jim McMahon, Jeff Hostetler. I'm going to save myself some time typing and let you peruse the list of lousy quarterbacks that just happened to be good enough to play in a Super Bowl.

http://www.profootballhof.com/history/release.aspx?release_id=97 You've just joined the Fan Boy Club with that statement. You want to share some Manziel love there's another Forum out there that will welcome you with open arms- PM Playground Legend or me, and we'll point you in the right direction.

Exactly Joe Thomas and the rest of the team are behind Hoyer- they see JFF every day in practice hmmm.

I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. Just because they are behind Hoyer doesn't mean they wouldn't be behind Manziel if Hoyer got injured. The fact is Manziel doesn't get the reps in practice that Hoyer gets and no matter how shitty Hoyer plays in practice and/or how good Manziel plays in practice you can't bench a qb 11 games into a playoff run season.

@miktoxic said:

Yes we miss the playoffs. I am a Browns fan like it or not. I like it when the team wins, even with Hoyer as quarterback. I would rather be a JM Fag then a Browns fan so desperate for a winning season they are too afraid to change anything.

@playgroundlegend said:

B already answered that- I know you're visiting from the other board, I know your stance, so I'll try to be civil. Luck is a once in a decade talent like Elway and Manning. Nuff said there. Wilson had the benefit of the best defense since the Super Bowl Ravens to bail him out. RG Knee and Newton are starting to look like one year flash in the pans- hey Derek Anderson had one great year too, no? Washington's trade for Griffin will go down as one of the 3 worst in NFL history- and you can take that to the bank. BTW, Griffin and Manziel do share a trait- lack of accountability for their actions.

@playgroundlegend said:

You still did not address anything I posted..

Im asking you why you automatically expect Johnny to be bad.. instead of good...

I mean.. he was our first round draft pick that we traded up to get..

He had all the proper metrics in college that you look for.. for a QB with NFL potential..

I really dont understand why you automatically assume the worst instead of the best..

You ever see that guys jersey with the 21 Browns qbs since 1999 on the back? Yeah, we traded up to get Quinn too- so tell me how that worked out. So excuse me if I'll believe Manziel is the real deal when I see it.

@texaskevin06 said:

But Hoyer is a known and he is not very good, no matter how much you tell me about the 7-4 record. Maybe Johnny would be 0-11 but maybe he would be 7-4 with the added ability to make something out of nothing, whether it's a broken play or the team is playing awful. And I know you wouldn't care about this but the excitement he brings is really something, that we can all agree. You all watched Texas A&M play simply because of him, just imagine watching your Browns play with him. I get 100% what you are saying and maybe putting Johnny in now is way to risky, but Hoyer isn't magically going to get more accurate. If we want to win in the playoffs I believe we need to make a change.

You may believe putting Manziel in now is a good idea- I say that's nuts. You know who else wans't very good and won a Super Bowl? Trent Dilfer- his career stats mirror Hoyer's. Doug Williams wasn't very good either. Jim McMahon, Jeff Hostetler. I'm going to save myself some time typing and let you peruse the list of lousy quarterbacks that just happened to be good enough to play in a Super Bowl.

http://www.profootballhof.com/history/release.aspx?release_id=97 You've just joined the Fan Boy Club with that statement. You want to share some Manziel love there's another Forum out there that will welcome you with open arms- PM Playground Legend or me, and we'll point you in the right direction.

@mikethomas777 said:

Throwing a rookie in for week 12 would not be a wise decision during a playoff run, even if that rookie was Andrew Luck. Would really piss off the vets that have worked their asses off this year. We don't know what Johnny can do, but now is not the time to experiment.

Exactly Joe Thomas and the rest of the team are behind Hoyer- they see JFF every day in practice hmmm.