@tour2ma said:

Yes...yes it is

@mudfly said:

Personally I, like Tour...

Johnny had a big good list and a big bad list coming out of college.

And, the bottom line is that if you PRAGMATICALLY start checkin boxes....it's the (bad) list thats getting the checks...

First... I like me too...

Second... the list approach is brilliant. I need to remember it for future reference.

@westside-steve said:

So Too bad about joe. Cancer sucks.

Total agreement on something achieved!

At least that's my impression...

Later...

@tour2ma said:

Yet you know my motivations...

It's my impression, Steve... a capsule summation of an impression collection. As such it is as fraught with the peril of inaccuracy as you looking into my soul based upon posts on an internet forum.

And, fuck... just heard Joe Cocker is dead...

Later...

I guess that's just my,uh, impression.

But how is it better the state your opinion on what Johnny feels or doesn't feel? We've never met him. I've never heard him say anything shitty.

So Too bad about joe. Cancer sucks.

WSS

Titans will most probably draft a QB

Bucaneers will definitely draft either Winston or Mariota

The Browns better key on offense line. Alex Mack goes out there goes the season.

@westside-steve said:

No sign of entitlement, something I bet neither you nor I know the slightest thing about him.

WSS

Yet you know my motivations...

It's my impression, Steve... a capsule summation of an impression collection. As such it is as fraught with the peril of inaccuracy as you looking into my soul based upon posts on an internet forum.

And, fuck... just heard Joe Cocker is dead...

Later...

@westside-steve said:

Tour I'd have to go back to quote where you said you would give Mariota more time than you've given Johnny because he seems to be less of a Bella Figura? If I misread that statement sorry.

Bella whata??? I would never say that... because I have no clue what it means...

And if I have ever compared MM and JM prior to this thread, I do not recall it. It's possible, but I do not recall it.

@tour2ma said:

Inability to read D's and subhuman accuracy... Need more?

Mariota won't be ours, but were he... more... much more. Why? There's no sign of "entitlement" in his make up.

JM's chances of developing into a QB worthy of the franchise label, ala Russell Wilson, are not yet over, but they have declined. You are now depending upon an immature, 22-yo, millionaire to knuckle down this off-season and learn his craft.

How do you like his chances?

No sign of entitlement, something I bet neither you nor I know the slightest thing about him.

WSS

WSS

Johnny had a big good list and a big bad list coming out of college. Everybody knows that. The existence of the lists is not disputed, but whats on the lists is. The lovers said all the negs are wrong. And the haters said all the negs are right. The lovers said all the positives would make him a star. And the haters said all the positives wont translate to the NFL. So....

There were some GREAT things that he did and the JFF lovers latched onto those things.

• Things like his will to win
• his ability to extend the play
• the ability to run
• as well as a decent arm and accuracy...

Then there was the bad list......

• Seemed immature and too focused on the party
• No experience with a Pro style offense or play book
• Not good at reading defenses
• Not good at staying in the pocket
• Too small

And, the bottom line is that if you PRAGMATICALLY start checkin boxes....it's the bottom list thats getting the checks...

So, this is a guy who had a lot of knocks on him from day #1 and those knocks....so far....seem to be what we see....

And he had a LOT of plusses and upside, but....so far....those things have not manifested...in practice, the public eye or a game

Like Bullychuck always said......"I can only go by what I see".....

@westside-steve said:

Hard to tell tour.

I'm serious when I say that the knock against Johnny has been, like the hype for him, a figment of sports writers fans and broadcast professionals imaginations and need for talk fodder.

Even though it often means nothing in the NFL he at least had a stellar college career, good enough to win the award for outstanding player. So I don't think it's crazy to think there's a possibility of him being good, very good or possibly better.

Just being a blue collar guy going to bed at 11 o'clock after watching the news with your wife and kid doesn't make you any better.

We tend to imagine variables like the ability to read defense or knowledge of the playbook neither of which do we really know anything about.

If anybody can actually read a defense then I'd expect them to change the play at the line of scrimmage everytime and make positive yardage.

If it boils down to the idea that you'd give Mariota more time since you just like him better then there's not much reason for us to argue. Right?

Or making excuses for Blake Bortles.

But to answer your question I'll give Johnny a full season. Which, as you recall, I supported for Brian.

Can't say I recall your season-long endorsement, but will say I believe you did if you say you did... Good enough?

Again though I have to say that my liking or not liking a player is not the issue; it has zero bearing on my evaluation. I honestly do not even think in those terms. For you to keep thinking that I do think in those terms unduly strains our discussions. In essence I write, "I do not like 1, 2 and 3 about Player X therefore in my opinion his chances of success are low," and you read, "Tour does not like Player X and therefor he harps upon 1, 2, and 3."

If you can't trust me on that, there's nothing I can write to change that perception. And with that in mind...

No, it's not crazy to think JM can succeed. I just don't think the odds are good that he will. I also believe that the higher the performance level you target, the lower the odds.

Collar color has nothing to do with it. Work ethic has a great deal to do with success. Work efficiency is also a factor though. Piles of inefficient hours don't add up to much.

It was clear coming out of A&M that JM did not read D's. He looked for open receivers. It's common for collegiate QBs. Wheezy did it. RG3 did it. It's very common. And JM failed at all three reads: Pre-snap, Snap and Post-snap. Sure no one makes them all. Pre-snap Reads are hidden. False reads are displayed.At the Snap is the D shifting or confirming the Pre? Post-snap is the Safety moving as expected? It's why you have to make all three. You have to make a high percentage to even be average in the NFL.

I like Mariota's chances better than Manziel's.

I like Bortles chances better than Manziel's.

I liked McCarron's chances better than Manziel's... going to be a while on that one.

I do not "know" any of them. I do not like or dislike any of them. But, because he is ours, I have followed JM most closely this past year. And, no, I do not like a lot of what he has done (behaviors). Nor do I like a lot of the characteristics he has displayed. But most of all I have not liked what I have seen on the field.

Finally, if pointing out that Bortles plays on a team that is inferior to the Browns is making excuses... then I'm guilty. But try shining your bright light of truth on "the knock against Johnny has been, like the hype for him, a figment of sports writers fans and broadcast professionals imaginations."

I'm serious when I say that the knock against Johnny has been, like the hype for him, a figment of sports writers fans and broadcast professionals imaginations and need for talk fodder.

Even though it often means nothing in the NFL he at least had a stellar college career, good enough to win the award for outstanding player. So I don't think it's crazy to think there's a possibility of him being good, very good or possibly better.

Just being a blue collar guy going to bed at 11 o'clock after watching the news with your wife and kid doesn't make you any better.

We tend to imagine variables like the ability to read defense or knowledge of the playbook neither of which do we really know anything about.

If anybody can actually read a defense then I'd expect them to change the play at the line of scrimmage everytime and make positive yardage.

If it boils down to the idea that you'd give Mariota more time since you just like him better then there's not much reason for us to argue. Right?

Or making excuses for Blake Bortles.

But to answer your question I'll give Johnny a full season. Which, as you recall, I supported for Brian.

WSS

@westside-steve said:

Actually given the same set of circumstances why not?

Inability to read D's and subhuman accuracy... Need more?

@westside-steve said:

So do you suppose we'll give Marcus Mariota 7 quarters to make or break his career?

The over under in Browns town seems to be six these days.

Mariota won't be ours, but were he... more... much more. Why? There's no sign of "entitlement" in his make up.

JM's chances of developing into a QB worthy of the franchise label, ala Russell Wilson, are not yet over, but they have declined. You are now depending upon an immature, 22-yo, millionaire to knuckle down this off-season and learn his craft.

How do you like his chances?

The over under in Browns town seems to be six these days.

WSS

@tour2ma said:

Tebow? More than 7 wins?

Are you testing me?

Actually given the same set of circumstances why not?

WSS

JM probably has another year and then another team to prove himself. If not for the circus, he'd have 2 years and then 2 teams waiting.

Are you testing me?

@opal312 said:

It wasn't bad enough last time trading away our number 4 and then trading back to number 8 like we had just won ten Super Bowls this decade. No it just wasn't bad enough!

Let's do it again and end up with a shit load of crappy ex Heisman winners. Why not call up Tebow!

B - as it stands Tim Tebow probably would have won us more games this past season than either of our quarterbacks.

WSS

Let's do it again and end up with a shit load of crappy ex Heisman winners. Why not call up Tebow!

@lumbergh said:

Only difference is Mariota will at least stay off of Instagram.