@tour2ma said:

Frustrating Tour. The Browns have been taking some good steps forward and much of it is lost on our drafting of Manziel. I just wish Connor Shaw would get ahold of the State Farm pump you up guys. He really impressed me in the Ravens game but I just don't know if he is big enough and has a strong enough arm. I like his mental attitude and he seems like a smart QB.

@tour2ma said:

This is what scares me. Other than one series against the Bills when the game was out of reach I haven't seen a glimpse of anything that makes me believe Manziel has the physical tools to be a successful NFL QB. Now add to that what appears to be a complete lack of mental acuity and I really don't know what anyone in the Browns organization saw that made them think that Manziel was worth the 22nd pick in the draft.

@mudfly said:

I think it's about the extremes that we see daily on this board.......There are folks who are hyperventilating(over reacting?) and there are some who think everything's fine(under reacting?)....dont want to be lumped with either group....

But I do see a lot that bothers me because I think of NFL qb's as executive type professionals who have reached the highest level....its a job that only 20-30 people in the whole world can do....and I think it takes total commitment & extreme effort to achieve this level.....and, yes, sacrifice too (which our guy clearly states he's not gonna do )

And if you aint willing to sacrifice some things and work hard to succeed, then you dont deserve the rewards of the job.....

I made one....JFF's list is very heavy on one side.....

Yep, it bothered the Browns too.....which is what REALLY counts.....

If I got called on vacation about a new employee and his personal issues, I guarantee I would be pissed and it would effect his standing in the company.....

And if it happened over and over.....well, it wouldn't actually.....because he'd be unemployed.....

And that "red flag" thing is what most rational people are pointing to......There are actually "many many" red flags, which is the problem most of us have.....

And there is nothing on the "good side" to balance those red flags.......like some touchdowns or effort or something.....anything......

So...I've answered your questions.....how about you answer mine.....do you have a good list of his contributions to the team???

I'm saying that if the front office doesn't think he has talent to play in the nfl they should cut him right now and not waste time and energy. If they believe as strongly has some of the experts here on this board what the hell are they waiting for?

WSS

@mudfly said:

I made one....JFF's list is very heavy on one side.....

IIRC the "heavy side" was not the positive side. Was kinda my point...

@westside-steve said:

I think it's about the extremes that we see daily on this board.......There are folks who are hyperventilating(over reacting?) and there are some who think everything's fine(under reacting?)....dont want to be lumped with either group....

But I do see a lot that bothers me because I think of NFL qb's as executive type professionals who have reached the highest level....its a job that only 20-30 people in the whole world can do....and I think it takes total commitment & extreme effort to achieve this level.....and, yes, sacrifice too (which our guy clearly states he's not gonna do )

And if you aint willing to sacrifice some things and work hard to succeed, then you dont deserve the rewards of the job.....

@tour2ma said:

Haven't seen a list since.

I made one....JFF's list is very heavy on one side.....

@oldbrownsfan said:

The photo of JM rolling the $20 dollar bill in the bathroom bothered me. It bothered the Browns org. enough where they had Pettine who was on vacation at the time make a personal call to JM.

Yep, it bothered the Browns too.....which is what REALLY counts.....

If I got called on vacation about a new employee and his personal issues, I guarantee I would be pissed and it would effect his standing in the company.....

And if it happened over and over.....well, it wouldn't actually.....because he'd be unemployed.....

@westside-steve said:

And that would be a red flag for me too. Are riokies drug tested as often as regular players?

That would call for an immediate test in my opinion. No idea how long cocaine stays in the system but it would in a hair follicle I'm assuming?

WSS

And that "red flag" thing is what most rational people are pointing to......There are actually "many many" red flags, which is the problem most of us have.....

And there is nothing on the "good side" to balance those red flags.......like some touchdowns or effort or something.....anything......

So...I've answered your questions.....how about you answer mine.....do you have a good list of his contributions to the team???

@westside-steve said:

I don't know if the NFL uses the hair follicle testing. With the urine screens cocaine stays in the system 3-5 days.

I did read this:

Players are tested for banned recreational drugs only once per year. If Manziel had his test during offseason workouts, he faces no further testing until April 20, 2015.

Unless, of course, the powers-that-be regard the photo as reasonable cause for asking Manziel to donate a cup of urine for insertion into a machine that will determine whether the urine contains evidence of any banned substances.

@oldbrownsfan said:

The photo of JM rolling the $20 dollar bill in the bathroom bothered me. It bothered the Browns org. enough where they had Pettine who was on vacation at the time make a personal call to JM.

That would call for an immediate test in my opinion. No idea how long cocaine stays in the system but it would in a hair follicle I'm assuming?

WSS

@westside-steve said:

The photo of JM rolling the $20 dollar bill in the bathroom bothered me. It bothered the Browns org. enough where they had Pettine who was on vacation at the time make a personal call to JM.

@mudfly said:

To provide an opposing view next to that list of transgressions, lets see if anyone can make a list of positives he brought to the team in terms of professionalism, overall effort or actual play.....

A lot of folks had very long lists of positives...

and then they saw JM play...

and then they heard him explain his play.

Haven't seen a list since.

@mudfly said:

Not really rumors or innuendo, as people aren't speculating about his activities....they are photographing and reporting them....(there is a difference)...

Does anything that has been photographs and reported bother you?

WSS

@mudfly said:

Please read again Steve....Im not arguing what he's done is right or wrong and aint going done THAT road for the millionth time.....Im just saying it's not rumor, its documented....... And my second point(now highlighted in red) simply states your point....which is....some dont think he's doing anything wrong....and some do.....

But it's a tired argument.....we've rehashed the "transgressions" over and over.....lets take a different perspective...

@westside-steve said:

Wait, so the list of transgressions includes the fact that he's been photographed at night clubs, correct?

I think that would be on the list, yes. IF your making a list of transgressions and you consider this a transgression. Some do. You dont.

And as I recall from the tweets the time frame has been somewhere between 130 and 3 o'clock. So that's it? That's your damning photographic evidence? Not MY evidence. Please dont put words in my mouth, as I dont think I was damning anybody?, was I? I, like you, just asked for a list....

Uh okay?

Any arrest? DUI's? Any failed drug test? Any broken team or league rule? Anything of that sort? Ever miss a team meeting or miss a treatment? I'm waiting. So far we have the fact he's going out to night clubs and was late for a hamstring treatment.

I dont have a list and aint gonna debate all his little stories that make the news. The real issue is if his FO and coach think theres a problem

WSS

So, Im not taking a stand or attacking all the negative stuff here....but AM stepping up and asking for the positive. Any job or business has to weigh the good and the bad, right?....so lets make a "good list", instead of rehashing all the negatives...........you start!

@mudfly said:

Not really rumors or innuendo, as people aren't speculating about his activities....they are photographing and reporting them....(there is a difference)...

It's about whether you consider them transgressions or not, that is really the point.

To provide an opposing view next to that list of transgressions, lets see if anyone can make a list of positives he brought to the team in terms of professionalism, overall effort or actual play.....

Which list would be longer?.....positives? ....or negatives?

Uh okay?

Any arrest? DUI's? Any failed drug test? Any broken team or league rule? Anything of that sort? Ever miss a team meeting or miss a treatment? I'm waiting. So far we have the fact he's going out to night clubs and was late for a hamstring treatment.

WSS

@babernakle said:

Well said! I have been preaching this for a while. All the reaches for QB's have set them back. I got blasted a few years ago when I said stick with Anderson for another couple years and build in other areas first. Now how many swing and misses on QB's have there been since Anderson. Stick with Hoyer and don't let Johnny Beiber be a distraction. Get that WR and fix the line!

@westside-steve said:

Not really rumors or innuendo, as people aren't speculating about his activities....they are photographing and reporting them....(there is a difference)...

It's about whether you consider them transgressions or not, that is really the point.

To provide an opposing view next to that list of transgressions, lets see if anyone can make a list of positives he brought to the team in terms of professionalism, overall effort or actual play.....

Which list would be longer?.....positives? ....or negatives?

@westside-steve said:

I agree with you. However, it seems the Browns staff isn't happy, innuendo or not, so it is what it is.

Sure, draft a RT with the second first rounder because OL wasn't great after Mack left.. but really, that's weak point #4 at this point.

Weak points number 1, 2, and 3 on the Browns right now are every starting DL spot.

Desmond Bryant is average as a starter, Armonty Bryant flashed but might not be consistent, everyone else is a backup.

The Gordon show doesn't rate at all.

@ballpeen said:

I don't know if he hinders it, but he doesn't add anything at this point.

We are going to have to ride the Johnny train this season and it either busts out or starts to show promise. And we should. We have a 3 game sample. That isn't enough. We also need to see if he is starting to take some of the advice to heart and he isn't tabloid material every month or so. Next weekend is a big week with the SuperBowl. I expect he will be seen. I don't expect him to hole up all off season. It's more the "where" and "when's" that will tell the tale. Is it at a nice restaurant with his party or is it at some nighclub at 2AM? Big difference. The guy needs to stay away from the clubs for a while as was shown a few weeks ago. The guy is a target. He may not be the cause of the trouble, but it seems trouble is going to seek him.

I understand the optics, but that's about all they are. Maybe football professionals share the feelings of the great unwashed, maybe not. I just wonder if anyone could write a list of his transgressions that really mean anything and are not really TMZ style rumors and innuendo?

WSS

@baconhound said:

I don't know if he hinders it, but he doesn't add anything at this point.

We are going to have to ride the Johnny train this season and it either busts out or starts to show promise. And we should. We have a 3 game sample. That isn't enough. We also need to see if he is starting to take some of the advice to heart and he isn't tabloid material every month or so. Next weekend is a big week with the SuperBowl. I expect he will be seen. I don't expect him to hole up all off season. It's more the "where" and "when's" that will tell the tale. Is it at a nice restaurant with his party or is it at some nighclub at 2AM? Big difference. The guy needs to stay away from the clubs for a while as was shown a few weeks ago. The guy is a target. He may not be the cause of the trouble, but it seems trouble is going to seek him.

VesnaKociper said:

Yeppers. Because using high draft picks on Joe Thomas, Joel Bitonio and Alex Mack was a total waste.....blech

VesnaKociper said:

@hounddawg said:

Agree although both Mariota and Winston could very well be good NFL quarterbacks the Browns just can't afford to take the chance. That old saying a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush applies. We know what we will be getting with Hoyer but with improvements they should get with the draft Hoyer may look even better with better players around him.