Which homo runs things over there now? Or did they just give up and look in the mirror and realize they were the gay branch of the Browns Backers?

Football version of log cabin Republicans.

Z

@diehardbrownsfan said:

Doesn't it suck when someone gets exposed for his inability to tell the truth? You kicked your ass today and all I had to do was watch and laugh. Thanks!

@flugel said:

Don't feel sorry for me. Lets have another 10 paragraph post bout how you document posts from 4 years ago. Even Inspecta knew you were nuts....

@diehardbrownsfan said:

You've had 1 trophy case moment after another today. I almost feel sorry for you. Sweet dreams...

@flugel said:

I also think you have mental health problems, but continue on with your spouting of bullshit! Have a nice day.

Some peeps don't like each other that's what life is. You just have to be respectable. Carry on gents kids are reading.

@diehardbrownsfan said:

I thought this was a perfect reminder of where you stood when I returned despite what you were spewing out in front of your audience in the Crow thread while forgetting how easily cut and paste can pin one to the truth.

Have a terrific day!

@flugel said:

You're wecome!

@diehardbrownsfan said:

Thanks again Diehard!!!

@tour2ma said:

Here's the most recent time I saw Flowers compared to Robinson:

Todd McShay -- ESPN

12 - WR DeVante Parker (Louisville)

19 - OL Ereck Flowers (Miami)

Of note: Flowers is young and raw and has drawn comparisons to Greg Robinson, whom the Rams selected with the No. 2 pick in last year’s draft. No one benched more than Flowers (37 repetitions of 225 pounds) at the Combine.

The reason I added "poor man's" is because Flowers isn't being projected anywhere close to #2 overall.

Just to be clear, I'm happy with our starting line as is right now. I have so many prospects I prefer to the oline prospects in round 1 that I carefully worded "if it was our fate to draft a tackle in round 1 I'd rather go after Ereck Flowers."

@flugel said:

The guy that worries me in round 1 is Andrus Peat. If our fate is to draft a tackle in round 1 I'd rather see us go after Ereck Flowers. He may be a little raw but his mean streak in the running game has a few draft experts thinking he's a poor man's Greg Robinson.

Peat had by far the best tape I've seen on an O-lineman this year, but ever since the Combine I just cannot get his odd body type out of my head. The dude looks like one of the goons from old, Popeye cartoons...

Flowers's tape was OK as it showed decent technique, but I thought he had issues getting to the 2nd level and delivering effective blocks that I attributed to lacking athleticism. Bottom line: I did not think he was well suited for our ZBS.

Also do not get the comparison with Robinson who to my eye came out all athlete, but little technique.

@flugel said:

I'm not sure if you intentionally used 'NT' or meant the 3rd ranked DT or big man overall? In which case, no shame in either of them. This is a loaded Dline class.

And if draft experts have Erick Flowers as a 'poor mans Greg Robinson' - I'd rather much avoid him then.

@tiamat63 said:

I love both those Shelton scenarios too! My football wood factor went from balsa to sequoia

It looked like Parker and Brown appeared most frequently. Maybe I'm just being unfair to Brown but the thought of getting the 3rd ranked NT with our first pick would leave me feeling like we're leapfrogging a unicorn (in the sense of how many BPAs we're blowing off).

The guy that worries me in round 1 is Andrus Peat. If our fate is to draft a tackle in round 1 I'd rather see us go after Ereck Flowers. He may be a little raw but his mean streak in the running game has a few draft experts thinking he's a poor man's Greg Robinson.

@tour2ma said:

Thanks Tour! Enjoyable read with a lot of good points. I'm afraid you're right about finding quality help on the oline really late or in the undrafted ranks these days so I'll change that to hoping we can find quality oline depth anywhere from round 3-5. Those are good sleepers you named. Marpet ran a really good 40 but I wonder if his shorter arms and level of competition will push him down toward round 3 or 4. I used to live about 30 minutes from Hobart so I dig his story.

Dead on with Gilkey. One of the concerns I always have with drafting a college Tackle in hopes of a smooth transition to becoming an NFL Guard is how quickly they can handle trapping/pulling if they haven't had much experience doing so. Some guys like Bitonio can get it. Pinkston and Lauvao couldn't (reminding us Daniel Snyder only has 2 brain cells and they're not on speaking terms). Unfortunately, a guy like Gilkey didn't get it as quickly as the shape of our line needed him to. In particular, it looked like he was tipping off a lot of our plays just in his stance. It sure seemed like anytime we either tried a short trap or asked him to pull - the defense swarmed in behind his fanny and blew our plays up in the backfield. My guess is opponents were catching something in his stance (maybe a slight lean or rock back) on film so he was an easy key on game day. Another thing a pulling/trapping guard should never do is BELLY back in lieu of staying tight to the line of scrimmage; especially when a lot of counter traps rely on play action fakes. I think I remembered seeing Gilkey collide with a fake handoff in a trap gone wrong. Also, when you're doing a power sweep or just pulling 1 guard to get your RB outside, if your guard bellies back it defeats the entire purpose of pulling the guard. Consequently, the RB has to wait that much longer to set up his blocks which only expedites pursuit getting to our ball carrier. I didn't pay much attention to what Gilkey did in TB. The only thing I know is their running game ended up ranked 29th. Part of me still wants to see that young man make it. But NFL windows are slamming shut quicker than ever so he's gotta -and get after it...

In terms of Cincy, they've attempted to give their QB a 6'5" TE (Gresham) in round 1, a 6'6" TE (Eifert) in round 1, a 6'4" Green in round 1 (11 TD receptions in 2013). There was another tall WR Marlon Jones that accounted for 10 more of Dalton's 33 TD passes in 2013. Mo Sanu was recently an early round investment for the passing game. Meanwhile, behind those oline investments you mentioned - they added Giovani Bernard in 2013 as their first home run threat in the backfield. This was followed up by an attempt to upgrade BenJarvus Green-Ellis' 3.4 yards per carry in 2013 via drafting Jeremy Hill in round 2. He became another home run threat in a much bigger frame. All that said, I like our line better and enjoyed seeing Crown sporting over 5 yards a carry when our line was at full strength. I think we have a solid slot receiver while I expect us to bring back a Miles Austin that wants us to. I really believe this draft is going to give us an excellent opportunity to strengthen our ability to score on the perimeter. As we agreed, the Josh McCown with a balanced attack in Chicago was much more successful than the one with only 1 dimension in Tampa.

New math: 10 draft picks + 50 million $ = Kickoff + Kickass

Agree with your takes on McCown and what our run game will mean to him in 2015... and Terry Pluto says the Browns agree with us. http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/index.ssf/2015/03/cleveland_browns_have_their_re.html

Hoyer's strength was Play-Action. I think McCown is actually better at the play fake. Whether he can follow it with as reads as quick as Brian's were (at least early in 2014) is the question... but I am optimistic. If so, then McCown's stronger arm should set him (and us) to be more successful.

The above scenario does raise the value of WR prospects though. IMO, however, not to drag along a mediocre QB, but to full take advantage of a better one.

BTW, Haden was drafted in 2010 and Green/ Dalton were both drafted by Cinci in 2011 when they made the playoffs after finishing 3rd in the AFCN with a 9-7 record. So it wasn't like Green dragged Dalton to great heights.

You were right about the Cinci line tho... their 2014 version included 1-1st (Zeitler), 1-2nd (Whitworth), 1-3rd (Winston) and 2-4ths (Bolling and Bodine). All but Winston were Cinci picks. But it is not as if they haven't made a reasonable investment in their O-line and, that said, it appears they are looking to upgrade as both Bolling and Winston are FAs.

I think the days of filling lines with UDFAs and late round picks are gone. Sure there will still be a sleeper or two a year who surprises, but no more so than we see in other positions, at least not proportionally. I think the emphasis on line positions is greater today because the athletic demands on the positions are greater. And subsequently the scouting effort is greater. Add that since '82 the Combine has been added and the talent just is noticed more, better appraised, valued more and thus rises higher than in the past.

Other than players where character questions hurt their value, I haven't seen a true, sleeper O-lineman in a couple years. I thought we had one a couple years ago in Gilkey, but the ZBS (a prime example of the increased athletic demands) did not suit his game. My two "sleepers" this year, Marpet and Ty Sambrailo (this year's Bito, IMO), may both be taken in Rnd 2... some sleepers. If a guy from Hobart can't slip through...

Is WR a need for us? Sure... but not IMO a great need. I just do not buy the "stacked box" argument, because in 2014 I know we beat loaded boxes frequently, even with a diminished O-line following Mack's injury.

Seems we're both there on D-line being the area of greatest need and Shelton being the best player to fill that need. I think LB is 2nd with O-line depth being third. Not knowing what we have in Painter and Barton I think the O-line depth will require a second round pick. So unless we gain another 2nd in a trade down of one of our firsts, I don't see a WR pick until round three... and there's value there.

Here's the thing about summaries, they don't reveal who the drafter passed over to select who they did. Who was available, but passed over, is as or more important than who they take determines fan reaction.

Taking Schreff is a big mistake and to kind of answer a rhetorical question from a previous post of your, Flugel - when healthy there was NO better Oline in the NFL than the Browns.

I have every faith that trend of dominance will continue into next season.

Todd McShay -- ESPN

12 - WR DeVante Parker (Louisville)

19 - OL Ereck Flowers (Miami)

Of note: Flowers is young and raw and has drawn comparisons to Greg Robinson, whom the Rams selected with the No. 2 pick in last year’s draft. No one benched more than Flowers (37 repetitions of 225 pounds) at the Combine.

Charles Davis -- NFL.com

12 - WR Amari Cooper (Alabama)

19 - OLB Alvin “Bud” Dupree (Kentucky)

Of note: Cooper, who broke most of Julio Jones’ program records during his three seasons with the Crimson Tide, hasn’t done anything to hurt his draft stock but his name appears to be dropping from the lofty perch it was at when mocks first started rolling out. Cooper is considered to be a dynamic route-runner but doesn’t have the same size as Kevin White or DeVante Parker.

Daniel Jeremiah -- NFL.com

12 - NT Danny Shelton (Washington)

19 - WR Jaelen Strong (Arizona State)

Of note: Most mock drafts anticipate Shelton to land with a team in the top 10 because he continues to check all of the boxes throughout the pre-draft process.

Bucky Brooks - NFL.com

12 - Brown

19 OL Andrus Peat (Stanford)

Of note: At the Combine, Peat was asked what he thought of his reputation that he’s not mean enough. “I beg to differ on that,” he said. “I feel like I’m a tough player so I don’t know what to say to that.”

Rob Rang -- CBSSports.com

12 - Parker

19 - DT Malcom Brown (Texas)

Of note: Depending on where you look, Brown is either the No. 3 or No. 4 defensive tackle prospect in the draft behind USC’s Leonard Williams -- a consensus top five pick -- and Shelton. Florida State’s Eddie Goldman is the other battling for No. 3.

Dane Brugler -- CBSSports.com

12 - Dupree

19 - OL La’el Collins (LSU)

Of note: Dupree was a star at the Combine and, in turn, has seen his names vault up mock drafts. He ran the fourth-best 40-yard dash among linebackers and was among the best in vertical leap and broad jump. He’s said he’d have no issues playing as a 3-4 linebacker after playing as a 4-3 end at Kentucky.

Pat Kirwan - CBSSports.com

12 - OT Brandon Scherff (Iowa)

19 - Brown

Of note: When asked about adding to the offensive line at the Combine, Browns coach Mike Pettine offered praise to right tackle Mitchell Schwartz while simultaneously reminding reporters about Michael Bowie, the former Seattle tackle who sat out 2014 with a shoulder injury. Scherff has the potential to play any position along the offensive line with the exception of center.

Peter King - TheMMQB.com

12 - Parker

Of note: King said he wouldn’t be shocked to see the Browns trade up to draft Cooper or Kevin White but said Parker is good enough to not feel forced to part with the No. 19 pick in an attempt to move up.

Don Banks - SI.com

12 - Parker

19 - Brown

Of note: The 6-foot-3, 209-pound Parker told reporters at the Combine described his game like this: “I'm a big, physical kind of player. I go up and get the ball. I go in the middle. Anywhere, I go and get it.”

Peter Schrager - Fox Sports

12 - Parker

19 - Brown

Of note: A defensive end in Texas’ defense last season, Brown said he’d have no problem adjusting to nose guard in a 3-4 if necessary. “You can put me anywhere,” he said. “I already know how to play the positions. I played end, stand-up end, all that last year. I played nose the previous two years, freshman and sophomore years. I can do it all.”

Shaun King - Yahoo! Sports

12 - Shelton

19 - TE Maxx Williams (Minnesota)

Of note: Williams didn’t have the best performance at the Combine, but he’s safely considered the best at his position in this year’s draft class. It would mark the third straight year in which a tight end was selected in the first round.

Matt Miller - Bleacher Report

12 - Brown

19 - Strong

Of note: Strong caught at least one touchdown pass in all but three games this past season. His best performance came against USC, when he finished with 10 receptions for 202 yards and three scores.

@unsympathetic said:

All valid points. I can't get Cincy out of my dome when I see them carrying a QB to double digit wins all the time while we're waiting for supply and demand to get more generous to us at QB. I hear you about the errant throws when guys are open. Again, it's looked like Joe Haden was Dalton's favorite target in some of our matchups. I think we can both find scenarios that fit whether we want a WR early or not (ie: the McCown that had a balanced attack in Chicago vrs the TB outcome). He'll get a running game in Cleveland with Mack back healthy. Let me ask you this: when Mack was healthy in 2014 - what offensive line in the AFC North looked better than Cleveland? That sets up some really nice play action which can lead to an uncontested receiver or 2.

Let's put the top of our draft down in writing for a second. I'm firmly entrenched with Shelton at #12. We also have 50 million $ of cap space for some FAs. Now we have our next first round pick that we can virtually go in any direction with before we get to Perriman or equitable talent/size at WR in round 2. After that, we have 7 picks to go carpet diem on. I brought up examples of when we used to ace the back end of drafts/undrafted FAs on the line. That said, we did it at other positions too like Sipe (round 13) and Byner (round 10). Meanwhile, the USFL equipped us with Mike Johnson, Kevin Mack, Dan Fike, Frank Minnifield. Today, guys like Gipson, Crow, Gabriel, and K'waun Williams are examples of why that's still important. Tom Coughlin recently said something along the line of: "We're only as good as our last guy on the active roster" in reference to all the unplanned injuries his team got plagued with. He's right. We came off 4 wins and held to the "play like a Brown" all the way to 7-4 without excuses until the injury volume got excessive enough for FUBAR the last 5 games. Aside from all that, look at where Seattle drafted a lot of guys like Sherman, Chancellor and even their QB. It wasn't in the first 2 rounds.

The reason I like size at WR has a lot to do with our situation of looking to QBs that wouldn't start any where else. You get BIGGER wing spans and an ability to win jump balls in traffic, which can help a QB that isn't always precise. Our 2007 season started as a train wreck vrs Pittsburgh with Frye starting at QB. The solution 1 week later vrs Cincy was to look to a QB with an overall fate of career backup. BECAUSE we could give him the balance of a running game and ideal red zone/3rd down targets like Edwards, Jurevicius and Winslow - our WR Corps ended with 20 TD receptions (as well as killer good volumes of receptions for 1st downs) while DA threw 29 TD passes to go with 1300 yards on the ground from Jamal Lewis. We won 10 games that one year all the stars and planets aligned for us almost exactly like what's been going on in Cincy without a keeper at QB. Again, with Mack healthy - I'll take our line and running game over anyone in our division. The room for improvement I see offensively is making this an easier place to play QB in 2015 which includes adding to the depth of our line.

Bowie is interesting.. they baptized a lot of less-than-replacement-level OL last season, none of whom were NFL caliber athletes. Yes, the Saints OG who were both probowl players were drafted late.. but that's not as common as the high-first-round OL such as Okung staying elite.

THe addition of all those division rival WR was, actually, the final piece of the puzzle for those offenses. Smith was a rook when Baltimore won the SB, the Bengals have had a great OL/RB for a while along with a QB they convinced themselves was good, and the Steelers have gone to the SB with BigBen several times.

The problem with WR before the 4th at this point is that we had a 26th ranked run D and a OL with no replacement last year.. and those are more important than the WR who touches the ball 3 times a game.

Give any NFL-level elite athlete an extra 0.5 seconds and he will shake the CB because offense has the advantage in the NFL or any man-to-man sport such as basketball. I'd rather pay the pro-bowl-level cash to the CB's such as haden who have genetically superior reaction times and can change direction quick enough to shut people down. Hopefully Gilbert will work out because he's that guy also.

We had few WR TD's because the QB was a flaming turd who couldn't get the ball to WR's regardless of where they were drafted. That's exactly the same reason KC had no WR td's this entire season despite the presence of a ex-pro-bowl WR.. their QB is terrible. Doesn't matter who we have at WR if the QB can't get the ball to the right spot even though Kevin White correctly stacked the CB and was positioned for a 40-yd gain.

Chris Matthews won't do much.. that was mostly undrafted free agent on undrafted free agent.. good stuff, yes, but david tyree never did anything either.

Yes, the WR issue is a quandary: We have neither QB nor DL and only 2/3 of an OL. And with McCown, we'll have to throw 35 times to complete 20.. and of those 20, 5-8 will be checkdowns. So don't expect any WR to get more than 5 in any one game even if that WR is a 1.

@unsympathetic said:

I like the way presented that. It certainly makes it easy to see where you are coming from.

Cincy is the opposite of the Jets. They got the WR in round 1 the year we drafted Joe Haden and they dragged a QB a lot of think is mediocre at best to the playoffs. Along the way, they have added pieces to the puzzle to give them a strong running game. Having said that, I doubt they've committed 2 second round picks and 2 first round picks to their oline. We have and I LOVE that after Joel Bitonio was emphasized in our last draft because he's the first REAL replacement we've seen to Steinbach since he went under the knife before the 2011 season.

You even made a good point in this thread about McCown not doing well in Tampa, HOWEVER, when Chicago surrounded him with a more reliable running game than Tampa could - he outplayed Cutler by a couple country miles with the tall/talented WRs. While Seattle never needs to draft perimeter help per say - that 6'4" kid NE was having trouble matching up with in the SB is an emerging star. If we could land that kind of talent in the undrafted population - I'm all for it. We don't though.

This year we have 10 draft picks so I'm not looking at it like drafting a WR in 1 of our top 3 picks means we can't add help on the offensive or defensive line. We used to find a Pro Bowl talent like Cody Riesen as late as round 7 or another reliable OT like Doug Dieken in round 6 or a man that could play 3 different positions like Paul Farren in round 12. Guys like Tony Jones and Orlando Brown were undrafted. Speaking of a guy like Paul Farren, we added Michael Bowie who started 9 games at 3 different positions for the Superbowl Champions Seahawks in 2013.

IMO, we're not creating a need at WR. There already is one. Look how many TD passes our WR Corps scored in our last 7-8 games. That makes us easy to defend in the red zone and on 3rd and long. Now look at the rest of the AFC North and you see AJ Green, Torrey Smith, Steve Smith, Antonio Brown to go along with good running games. They're balanced attacks. We ONLY have a good running game that will invite a lot of loaded boxes in 2015 especially if there's nothing to fear outside or over the top, It's like we're playing gridiron chess with pawns in the passing game.

OL and DL are infinitely more important than WR to the success of a team. QB is the other most important position.

It's not that WR don't have a function.. but as the undrafted WR in the Super Bowl prove, you don't need to draft a WR to have a good passing game or a team that wins. Furthermore, since the strength of WR [either good OR bad] has no bearing on the actual success of the team... why bother drafting them?

Arguing about the relative WR strength of the 2014 browns.. ignores the fail that was the QB position. It's like saying WR fixes the Jets offense.. despite the fact that the Jets QB was an escaped pizza parlor manager named Geno. Anyone want to bet the Jets offense [and Marshall's stats] will be terrible in 2015?

Since the only time a good WR changes your results is AFTER everything else is fixed... don't draft them before the 4th until everything else is actually fixed.

@calfoxwc said:

Stats are for arguers with no legitmate clue.

I had not realized that your stat/fact free life included football as well. My bad...

@calfoxwc said:

And maybe you'll take my opinion better since I, too, was an offensive lineman in college. Couch

******************************************************

Oh, I just have run into Tour and his stats that make him think he shouldn't be disagreed with.

Just my stupid opinion.

In my experience stupid opinions can be improved with thought...

Also in my experience it's not facts that are boring; it's agreement.

I actually have no issues when folks disagree with what I say... sometimes, however, I will take exception with the manner they disagree. What you think is reaction to disagreement is more often than not simply explanation of my rationale or examination of the other party's rationale.

Oh... and I played a little O-line myself. Not very gifted athletically, but coaches considered me to be a good technician and a strong "student of the game".

@miktoxic said:

I just re-showed my first post in this thread before I morphed into the Cliff Clavin you describe here. Cliff's notes didn't work. Understanding we're coming off a volume of 8 TD receptions from the WR Corps up against our 2015 QB situation - I thought adding a big target in the WR Corps would make this a little easier on our next QB. Since we all know and understand the Alex Mack dynamic returns to our offense - the reality exists that we still need to pose a threat of throwing TD passes in the red zone or the rushing TDs will turn right back into playing for FGs as the year progresses (even with Alex). That's about the time you'll begin to hear people expressing how much they miss Phil Dawson's range of 50-60 yard FGs again. You gotta have a dual threat or stopping our 1 dimension in a division with 3 playoff teams will keep us 2-4 inside our division.

Some of the replies to people wanting a WR in this thread were Atlanta and Tampa didn't win despite what they added to the WR position. Very true; BUT we have witnessed first hand that AJ Green and Co have carried a very mediocre QB to the playoffs almost every year since Green arrived. The difference between Cincy and Atl is one team had the running game to give them a more balanced attack. When Cincy does get IN the red Zone, look at the size of their targets they opted to make life easier on Dalton with...

Last but not least, I earned the village idiot hat in this thread for how I treated Tour. Regardless of who was doing the better job articulating their point - I didn't need to jump all over the guy the way I did. The level of respect he's earned and continues to command in here speaks for itself even though I appreciate Cal having my back. Plenty of exciting football topics to talk moving forward - in under 10 paragraphs...