Browns vs. Steeler LB corps

Reply to Browns vs. Steeler LB corps on Tue, 21 Apr 2015 14:47:22 GMT

The Gipper — Tue, 21 Apr 2015 14:47:22 GMT

The one notable difference is we use 2 backs and they used one.

Actually, we used 3 backs....I included Ben Tate who was the primary runner for the first several games for the Browns

(also note....the Steelers numbers included Blounts numbers.)

Reply to Browns vs. Steeler LB corps on Tue, 21 Apr 2015 14:33:15 GMT

Mudfly — Tue, 21 Apr 2015 14:33:15 GMT

@vagitron said:

Gipper Antonio brown isn't a special receiver and Hawkins is better after the catch? Seriously?

Actually...Hawkins AND Gabriel are WAY better after the catch than Brown is. And Brown is hardly a "phenom" after the catch...

Gabe was 4th in the league with 7.6 YAC avg and Hawkins was 13th with 6.4 YAC avg......Antonio Brown?....he's rated 44th with 4.8 yac avg....and those are hard numbers, not opinion or grades.....

So, once again....just homer bs from Vag and no facts Jack.......thats right......44th (what a phenom)

@vagitron said:
Lack of insight? Hilarious. Running backs and in most cases tight ends are safety valves for qbs experienced or inexperienced. It is completely different when talking about receivers. Bell would be good anywhere and Brown for the sake of argument is a phenom after the catch. Either would excel with every team in the league. Short dump offs = profit.

Im there on Bell. He's the best back of the group(both teams)....of course, it's like us saying last year that Josh Gordon was the best receiver....Bell just handed back 20% of next years production, so that'll pretty much nullify any extra he offers....

@vagitron said:
Yes Gipper and its a flawed fucking argument. Who compares the production of two players to the production of one? Bell is better than both backs combined. He's certainly better than either one on one.

These are all threads comparing "position groups"....I get that you dont get a lot of things, so read that back slowly.....

@the-gipper said:

I compared the production of the Steelers running game to that of the Browns.

Yep....bottom line.....we have identical running #'s....almost exact......Steelers have a slightly higher avg gain and we have more touchdowns....so, the running game comparison is a complete wash....

The one notable difference is we use 2 backs and they used one.......so, you can say they have the better back.....but, also gotta consider all their eggs are in one basket....one injury or drug suspension ends if for the Stoolers...while we just go "next man up"...it'll be interesting to see where our running numbers are come week 4......

Plus....the same chance exists that one of our 2 backs has a break out year, just like Bell did last year......

Reply to Browns vs. Steeler LB corps on Tue, 21 Apr 2015 14:13:28 GMT

The Gipper — Tue, 21 Apr 2015 14:13:28 GMT

@douche-nozzle said:

Vag, I'm sure you are aware of this but Gipper simply makes things up to see his own words in print.

Yea, I made up everyone of of those statistics just off the top of my head.

Did I also invent the statistics that showed the Steelers to be much more proficient at the passing game.

What? you only want to see facts that are in your favor and play ostrich when they are not?

He is a spin doctor of the highest degree and seldom can have a common sense conversation because he is bent on demonstrating things which simply aren't true.

Except of course what I said was absolutely true.

Last year he posted that Ben Tate was better than Bell and a whole bunch of other non-sense and I'd be willing to bet that he would still find a way to argue his stupidity.

Last year, at the beginning of the year, yes, I said that I felt that Ben Tate could be as good or better than Bell. That was an opinon based on the history of the two players. Bell had played just his rookie season where he gained like 800 yards rushing...Tate had been a veteran that had had two seasons in his history that had been the equal of Bell's rookie season. That was at the beginning of the year. Of course it was proven that Ben

Tate was NOT what we thought he was....and that Bell was more than even your bunch thought he would be.

He is fixated, like many of the members here, on proving to themselves that the Browns and the Steelers are essentially the same or that maybe the Browns are just a notch better.

Not fixated at all......if I were I would still be saying that Ben Tate was better, wouldn't I?

And, of course you omit the fact that clearly we all acknowledge where the Steelers were better....and which makes all the difference: the QB....plus the the DC.

On a specific, individual player basis, taking each individual, the Browns DO have more better players. The stats that Mufly posted from PFF say so.

If you want to argue with those, call PFF.

But, of course, the most important position on any football team, the QB, has the Steelers ahead hands down.

Why would you disparage your own QB and not acknowledge how superior he is to the Browns QB?

I mean, I know you are not very smart, but at least you should know that much.

You may as well go to a mental institution and talk to those people about getting their shit together.

You and he should have fun together then.

Reply to Browns vs. Steeler LB corps on Tue, 21 Apr 2015 14:02:10 GMT

The Gipper — Tue, 21 Apr 2015 14:02:10 GMT

@vagitron said:
Yes Gipper and its a flawed fucking argument. Who compares the production of two players to the production of one? Bell is better than both backs combined. He's certainly better than either one on one.

I compared the production of the Steelers running game to that of the Browns. Who does that? Anyone and everyone.

Sure, if you have a Bell or a DeMarcus Murray or AP......a big gun, you shoot it. But some teams have RB by committee.

If one is asked which one of these specific individual RBs is the best.....sure, it would be Bell at this point.

But if it is asked, which team has the better overall running game.....the answer is: its fairly even.

(again....just talking about the rushing....not the production in the pass game)

Reply to Browns vs. Steeler LB corps on Mon, 20 Apr 2015 23:30:35 GMT

thenew23 — Mon, 20 Apr 2015 23:30:35 GMT

@vagitron said:
Yes Gipper and its a flawed fucking argument. Who compares the production of two players to the production of one? Bell is better than both backs combined. He's certainly better than either one on one.

My original comment was about position groups... not players...

@thenew23 said:

The only position group I'll give the Steelers the definite edge is at QB...

... it just so happens that's the most important position on the entire field...

Reply to Browns vs. Steeler LB corps on Mon, 20 Apr 2015 23:19:45 GMT

Vagitron — Mon, 20 Apr 2015 23:19:45 GMT

@the-gipper said:

Do you read what is being written? thenew23 said that West/Crowell combined were nearly as good as Bell.

Do you forget that you moaned and groaned and whined and cried over that statement........yet I proved statiscially that thenew23 was essentially right.....that those 2 combined had nearly the same carries/yardage/more TD....

Again, and again and again, you throw a tantrum....and then deny. How old are you? Because you act like you are like 4.

Yes Gipper and its a flawed fucking argument. Who compares the production of two players to the production of one? Bell is better than both backs combined. He's certainly better than either one on one.

Reply to Browns vs. Steeler LB corps on Mon, 20 Apr 2015 22:54:20 GMT

The Gipper — Mon, 20 Apr 2015 22:54:20 GMT

@vagitron said:
We aren't arguing success of the running game. What was being argued is that bell is the best in the NFL. It seems you are the one chasing something no one was chasing.

Do you read what is being written? thenew23 said that West/Crowell combined were nearly as good as Bell.

Do you forget that you moaned and groaned and whined and cried over that statement........yet I proved statiscially that thenew23 was essentially right.....that those 2 combined had nearly the same carries/yardage/more TD....

Again, and again and again, you throw a tantrum....and then deny. How old are you? Because you act like you are like 4.

Reply to Browns vs. Steeler LB corps on Mon, 20 Apr 2015 22:19:11 GMT

Vagitron — Mon, 20 Apr 2015 22:19:11 GMT

We aren't arguing success of the running game. What was being argued is that bell is the best in the NFL. It seems you are the one chasing something no one was chasing.

Reply to Browns vs. Steeler LB corps on Mon, 20 Apr 2015 22:16:48 GMT

Vagitron — Mon, 20 Apr 2015 22:16:48 GMT

@the-gipper said:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/pit/2014.htm

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/cle/2014.htm

Gipper that isn't the damn point. You are comparing two sets of legs, two entirely different players that stayed fresh throughout the season because they weren't carrying a full time load to ONE player. You don't see the flawed logic here? Bell out performed two players and slaughtered them in the pass game. Do you think west as the full time ball carrier would have put up the same numbers as bell? Or Crowell for that matter? If that's the case the browns have one hell of a bargaining chip this upcoming draft and you should expect one to be traded.

Reply to Browns vs. Steeler LB corps on Mon, 20 Apr 2015 21:57:52 GMT

The Gipper — Mon, 20 Apr 2015 21:57:52 GMT

The Steelers offensive advantage was in the passing game. (gee, imagine that give the respective QBs):

Steelers: 411 of 612 attempts. 67.2% compl. rate. 4997 yards. 33 TDs, 10 Ints. 8.2 ypa. 312.3 ypg. 103.2 rating 33 sacks

Browns: 274 of 502 54.6% compl. rate 3678 yards 12 TDs, 16 Ints. 7.3 ypa, 229.9 ypg. 72.8 rating 31 sacks

Quarterbacks matter.

(almost identical running game. Browns Somewhat better OL. Almost equal LB corps. D Line....jury out. I don't think I even need to go into the Defensive Backfield.....Browns are simply better).

Quarterbacks matter ....and yes, organizational stability.

Reply to Browns vs. Steeler LB corps on Mon, 20 Apr 2015 21:45:52 GMT

The Gipper — Mon, 20 Apr 2015 21:45:52 GMT

@vagitron said:

Hoyer was always bombing the ball deep, if shanahan really didn't want to scheme to the HB's that in your opinion are other worldly then he's a terrible offensive coordinator.

See, now I think we agree on something.

I just don't think either crowell or west are very proficient through the air.

Well, I just think we don't have a clue whether they were or not. You certainly don't know any better than we do if those guys could do a good job of catching out of the backfield.

If its neither of those things then its on hoyer for jot being very good and requiring the extra blocker a majority of the time.

Maybe some....Hoyer certainly went into the fetal position the latter half of the season.....but I think it is more Shanahan.

I also think its hilarious you are even trying to draw comparisons between two hbs vs one. I guess that means we should be able to just double bells production and then compare stats.

Well, this is why you lack credibility. If you notice, the W/C combo had almost the exact number of carries that Bell had. They shared the duties in the latter part of the year.......where Bell was the main carrier for the Steelers. The Steelers didn't have the RB by committee thing going that the Browns did.

But here are the stats for the two teams combined running game. For the Browns it combines Tate, West, Crowell, for the Steelers it combines Cheech and Chong, you know Bell and Blount. While each team had a few smattering of run plays run by QBs and others, nearly all the rushing game came from the 3 from Cleve. and the two from Pitt:

Browns combined stats (3 players) 425 carries 1613 yards 16 TDs, 3.6 ypc, 108.0 ypg

Steelers combined stats(2 players) 355 carries 1627 yards 10 TDs 4.1 ypc, 109.5 ypg.

As was noted earlier, Browns and Steelers had close to the same run game. 14 yards difference the entire year, 1.5 ypg. Steelers did have the better ypc....Browns had more rushing TDs.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/pit/2014.htm

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/cle/2014.htm

Reply to Browns vs. Steeler LB corps on Mon, 20 Apr 2015 21:15:32 GMT

Vagitron — Mon, 20 Apr 2015 21:15:32 GMT

@the-gipper said:

You are completely missing the point. I know they do a fine job of executing the plays that are called for them.

....but Bell is not the one calling those plays, is he? The last time I noticed, BR was the Steelers QB.....and for Bell to get 83 catches, he has to have a QB willing to throw it to him 83 times.....and an OC willing to call those plays. Maybe they call those plays because they are confident in Bell's ability to make those plays...and that is fine.

But my point is that the Browns did NOT scheme to get the ball in the hands of their RBs in the pass game.....which to me was one of the flaws in the Browns offense. They ignored potential weapons...potential options. I think it went far beyond a lack of confidence in the rookies to catch the ball. Shanahan just didn't want to call those plays. More often than not he would not even allow the RB to go out as an outlet receiver....making them stay in to block if they weren't getting the ball.

Maybe our new OC will revise that scheme.

Why do you want to talk about apples when I am talking about oranges?

Hoyer was always bombing the ball deep, if shanahan really didn't want to scheme to the HB's that in your opinion are other worldly then he's a terrible offensive coordinator. I just don't think either crowell or west are very proficient through the air. If its neither of those things then its on hoyer for jot being very good and requiring the extra blocker a majority of the time. I also think its hilarious you are even trying to draw comparisons between two hbs vs one. I guess that means we should be able to just double bells production and then compare stats.

Reply to Browns vs. Steeler LB corps on Mon, 20 Apr 2015 21:08:17 GMT

The Gipper — Mon, 20 Apr 2015 21:08:17 GMT

@vagitron said:
You reach, reach, reach until you can find something to hang your bs on...watch bell's highlights. He creates the space and Haley does a nice job.

You are completely missing the point. I know they do a fine job of executing the plays that are called for them.

....but Bell is not the one calling those plays, is he? The last time I noticed, BR was the Steelers QB.....and for Bell to get 83 catches, he has to have a QB willing to throw it to him 83 times.....and an OC willing to call those plays. Maybe they call those plays because they are confident in Bell's ability to make those plays...and that is fine.

But my point is that the Browns did NOT scheme to get the ball in the hands of their RBs in the pass game.....which to me was one of the flaws in the Browns offense. They ignored potential weapons...potential options. I think it went far beyond a lack of confidence in the rookies to catch the ball. Shanahan just didn't want to call those plays. More often than not he would not even allow the RB to go out as an outlet receiver....making them stay in to block if they weren't getting the ball.

Maybe our new OC will revise that scheme.

Why do you want to talk about apples when I am talking about oranges?

Reply to Browns vs. Steeler LB corps on Mon, 20 Apr 2015 20:51:37 GMT

Vagitron — Mon, 20 Apr 2015 20:51:37 GMT

@the-gipper said:

Well, that he is better may be a product of the time of offense they ran. The Browns guys have hardly had the opportunity to do the same. Bell certainly has been more productive in the pass game.....because imo, to a certain extent, the Steelers offense is heavily tailored to getting him the ball in open space. Which is good. You have something that works, use it.

One of my criticisms of Shanahan's offense last year was that he NEVER seemed to want the RBs to be much of a part of the receiving game. It seemed to me that it was only on rare occasion that the RB was used as an outlet receiver. And screen passes to our RBs was almost non-existant. As noted earlier, Tate had only 9 receptions, Crowell had only 9, West only 11. 29 catches vs. 83 for Bell. That number goes beyond talent. It was definitely Shanahan's purpose to de-emphasize RBs in the pass game.

You reach, reach, reach until you can find something to hang your bs on...watch bell's highlights. He creates the space and Haley does a nice job.

Reply to Browns vs. Steeler LB corps on Mon, 20 Apr 2015 20:44:36 GMT

The Gipper — Mon, 20 Apr 2015 20:44:36 GMT

@vagitron said:

Bell runs receiver quality routes to get open and he's much better at catching the football than west and crowell. Just as he's much better in the open field. He certainly didn't only catch short dump offs but his yards after catch I would assume were substantial.

Edit:http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/receiving/sort/receivingYardsAfterCatch

Bell was second only to Matt forte.

Well, that he is better may be a product of the time of offense they ran. The Browns guys have hardly had the opportunity to do the same. Bell certainly has been more productive in the pass game.....because imo, to a certain extent, the Steelers offense is heavily tailored to getting him the ball in open space. Which is good. You have something that works, use it.

One of my criticisms of Shanahan's offense last year was that he NEVER seemed to want the RBs to be much of a part of the receiving game. It seemed to me that it was only on rare occasion that the RB was used as an outlet receiver. And screen passes to our RBs was almost non-existant. As noted earlier, Tate had only 9 receptions, Crowell had only 9, West only 11. 29 catches vs. 83 for Bell. That number goes beyond talent. It was definitely Shanahan's purpose to de-emphasize RBs in the pass game.

Reply to Browns vs. Steeler LB corps on Mon, 20 Apr 2015 20:31:30 GMT

Vagitron — Mon, 20 Apr 2015 20:31:30 GMT

@the-gipper said:

Nonresponsiveness is another symptom of psychosis. Nevertheless.....are you saying that Bell got almost all his yards pass catching on short dumpoffs? 832 yards worth?

If it is so easy to do for any half assed QB even, then why didn't the Browns do much of it? Our two guys combined got what? 150 yards? And Ben Tate only had 9 catches for 60 yards.

So? Why is your one RB getting 832 yards receiving and our 3 guys getting just over 200 combined?

Bell runs receiver quality routes to get open and he's much better at catching the football than west and crowell. Just as he's much better in the open field. He certainly didn't only catch short dump offs but his yards after catch I would assume were substantial.

Edit:http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/receiving/sort/receivingYardsAfterCatch

Bell was second only to Matt forte.

Reply to Browns vs. Steeler LB corps on Mon, 20 Apr 2015 20:26:56 GMT

The Gipper — Mon, 20 Apr 2015 20:26:56 GMT

@vagitron said:
Lack of insight? Hilarious. Running backs and in most cases tight ends are safety valves for qbs experienced or inexperienced. It is completely different when talking about receivers. Bell would be good anywhere and Brown for the sake of argument is a phenom after the catch. Either would excel with every team in the league. Short dump offs = profit.

Nonresponsiveness is another symptom of psychosis. Nevertheless.....are you saying that Bell got almost all his yards pass catching on short dumpoffs? 832 yards worth?

If it is so easy to do for any half assed QB even, then why didn't the Browns do much of it? Our two guys combined got what? 150 yards? And Ben Tate only had 9 catches for 60 yards.

So? Why is your one RB getting 832 yards receiving and our 3 guys getting just over 200 combined?

Reply to Browns vs. Steeler LB corps on Mon, 20 Apr 2015 19:28:31 GMT

Vagitron — Mon, 20 Apr 2015 19:28:31 GMT

@the-gipper said:
A psychologist would say your lack of insight iand understandin into your issues is your first failure.

Lack of insight? Hilarious. Running backs and in most cases tight ends are safety valves for qbs experienced or inexperienced. It is completely different when talking about receivers. Bell would be good anywhere and Brown for the sake of argument is a phenom after the catch. Either would excel with every team in the league. Short dump offs = profit.

Reply to Browns vs. Steeler LB corps on Mon, 20 Apr 2015 19:08:17 GMT

nickers — Mon, 20 Apr 2015 19:08:17 GMT

@vagitron said:
Not the point chubby checker.

Its totally the POINT!

Reply to Browns vs. Steeler LB corps on Mon, 20 Apr 2015 18:55:12 GMT

The Gipper — Mon, 20 Apr 2015 18:55:12 GMT

@vagitron said:
I don't spout off blindly Gipper. I don't need to do self reflecting. You and others have been calling for the fall of the steelers for as long as I've been on the board.

A psychologist would say your lack of insight iand understandin into your issues is your first failure.

Reply to Browns vs. Steeler LB corps on Mon, 20 Apr 2015 18:53:49 GMT

The Gipper — Mon, 20 Apr 2015 18:53:49 GMT

@vagitron said:
It really doesn't. Bell runs receiver quality routes. He would put up ridiculous numbers in Cleveland too.

Yes.....probably....

So, in your mind there should be no difference in who is throwing the ball to a WR or RB? That seems to be what you are claiming.

Reply to Browns vs. Steeler LB corps on Mon, 20 Apr 2015 18:31:39 GMT

Vagitron — Mon, 20 Apr 2015 18:31:39 GMT

@the-gipper said:
Just go back and look at 99% of your posts. I see this more of an opportunity for you to do some self reflection.

I don't spout off blindly Gipper. I don't need to do self reflecting. You and others have been calling for the fall of the steelers for as long as I've been on the board.

Reply to Browns vs. Steeler LB corps on Mon, 20 Apr 2015 18:28:10 GMT

The Gipper — Mon, 20 Apr 2015 18:28:10 GMT

@vagitron said:
Gipper you spend a lot of time researching stuff. Please dig up some stupid things I've said that couldn't be backed up.

Just go back and look at 99% of your posts. I see this more of an opportunity for you to do some self reflection.

Reply to Browns vs. Steeler LB corps on Mon, 20 Apr 2015 18:16:11 GMT

Vagitron — Mon, 20 Apr 2015 18:16:11 GMT

@nickers said:

He does not have to.. You provide all the Ammo he needs on your own LOL!

Not the point chubby checker.