@riffer-x said:

Who gives a shit where Edwards was originally drafted BTW? And yes, he was a huge part of this team sucking early on last year. You just said you want playmakers, well what do you call dropping every other pass? Is that being a playmaker? How about the Dallas drop? They still had a good shot in that game. He left balls laying all over the field last year, it didn't matter if they were a slant for 6 yards on third and five, a deep post for six or just a normal square in that bounced off his chest.

Playmakers.....how about guys that can catch the ball and help move the chains? Besides, he will be moving on next year or we will be forced to franchise him. What will his value be then?

You also made another point for me when you said it couldn't possibly be all Edwards' fault last year, and that's because this team has so many holes to fill. Edwards can help us fill some of those holes. If you get a 2 and 3, you take Crabtree to fill his void while stockpiling more holes in the second and third. How is that not value for a guy who simply drops every third ball thrown his way? Last year wasn't the first time he dropped balls BTW, it just reached epic proportions.

I guess in true Cleveland fashion we can all by the hype that this year he is determined and will be a better player blah blah blah until he comes out game one and drops the pass that could make or break the game. There's a cycle here with this guy just like with DA, but people want to buy the hype that everything will be fine. That's what us Cleveland fans do, but I'm trying to be proactive about it and the opportunity is now.

Yea I said he had a bad year this year, but what about last year was that a fluke, you dont catch 16 td passes in a season on accident

getting a 2nd and 3rd is hardly filling holes, we would be very lucky to get one starter outta them picks. Id rather stick with my Pro Bowl WR then pray i hit on one of these guys in the draft

Wide - Meaning the player lines up wide.

Receiver - Here's the important part. It means that the player catches the ball.

1 out of 2 isn't what I call a "playmaker."

Dependability is very important to me. It's important to a QB's confidence in his WR, as well. If I can't depend on a guy to do his job, then it's time for a change. A hope and a prayer is not the best strategy for football. A QB can't throw a ball thinking, "Please, catch it. Please, catch it."

-Al

nmills said:

Why would you draft a WR #3 overall if your gonna give up on him and trade him for a 2nd or 3rd, thats not getting value while you can thats losing major value.

I guess maybe you didn't read my lengthy posts before, but I thought I made it pretty clear where the value stood.

Who gives a shit where Edwards was originally drafted BTW? And yes, he was a huge part of this team sucking early on last year. You just said you want playmakers, well what do you call dropping every other pass? Is that being a playmaker? How about the Dallas drop? They still had a good shot in that game. He left balls laying all over the field last year, it didn't matter if they were a slant for 6 yards on third and five, a deep post for six or just a normal square in that bounced off his chest.

Playmakers.....how about guys that can catch the ball and help move the chains? Besides, he will be moving on next year or we will be forced to franchise him. What will his value be then?

You also made another point for me when you said it couldn't possibly be all Edwards' fault last year, and that's because this team has so many holes to fill. Edwards can help us fill some of those holes. If you get a 2 and 3, you take Crabtree to fill his void while stockpiling more holes in the second and third. How is that not value for a guy who simply drops every third ball thrown his way? Last year wasn't the first time he dropped balls BTW, it just reached epic proportions.

I guess in true Cleveland fashion we can all by the hype that this year he is determined and will be a better player blah blah blah until he comes out game one and drops the pass that could make or break the game. There's a cycle here with this guy just like with DA, but people want to buy the hype that everything will be fine. That's what us Cleveland fans do, but I'm trying to be proactive about it and the opportunity is now.

@geech said:

Year - - G - - GS - - C - - Yds - - Avg. - - TDs - - Comments

2005 - - 10 - - 07 - - 32 - - 512 - - 16.0 - - 3 - - (Rookie gets the benefit of the doubt)

2006 - - 16 - - 15 - - 61 - - 884 - - 14.5 - - 6 - - (Better, but not $8m per year better)

2007 - - 16 - - 16 - - 80 - - 1,289 - 16.1 - 16 - - (That's #3 overall, $8m per year #s!)

2008 - - 16 - - 16 - - 55 - - 873 - - 15.9 - - 3 - - (Back to the same old Braylon)

I hate to give up on him, but the plethora of dropped passes and his scared eyes locked on incoming defenders instead of being locked in on the ball is too much for me to overcome.

-Al

Id take them first three seasons anyday from a young receiver. He improved every year dramatically except last year and now you wanna get rid of him. Like I said one bad year, at that a bad year that 75% of widereceivers in the nfl would love to have

nmills said:

Quite the contrary. He's had one good year. I'm getting tired of arguing this point.

Year - - G - - GS - - C - - Yds - - Avg. - - TDs - - Comments

2005 - - 10 - - 07 - - 32 - - 512 - - 16.0 - - 3 - - (Rookie gets the benefit of the doubt)

2006 - - 16 - - 15 - - 61 - - 884 - - 14.5 - - 6 - - (Better, but not $8m per year better)

2007 - - 16 - - 16 - - 80 - - 1,289 - 16.1 - 16 - - (That's #3 overall, $8m per year #s!)

2008 - - 16 - - 16 - - 55 - - 873 - - 15.9 - - 3 - - (Back to the same old Braylon)

I hate to give up on him, but the plethora of dropped passes and his scared eyes locked on incoming defenders instead of being locked in on the ball is too much for me to overcome.

-Al

@riffer-x said:

I realize you're an Edwards fan and are still clinging to his 2007 season, but the fact remains he was goddawful last year and a huge contributor to the suckage this team put forth. A claim can be made that he was first and foremost the reason the team started so terrible and along with DA basically put us too far behind to catch up. When we did try to catch up, he was right there to give the Ravens game away. Season over: kaput after that.

This is a young man's game, and Edwards has already had a full on knee reconstruction, so let's not act like he's still a spring chicken. He certainly should have gotten over the dropsies by now, and as far as "not giving up on young players" as you stated, that's one of this franchises biggest problems. Get value while you can for guys like this and move on. Right now is the time to do it and hopefully the Serial Drive Killer will be following closely behind. See ya DA and Edwards. Oh, and DA is a perfect example of what I'm talking about, he should have been moved last year at his highest value. Instead, our franchise chose to turn a blind eye to all his issues and acted like they would miraculously get resolved in the right cockpit.

I still am of the belief that Phillip's blind loyalty to DA ultimately cost him his job, and I think DA had a helluva lot to do with Edwards shitting the bed. Edwards is the kind of guy who needs a solid chemistry with his QB, and that's not possible with someone like DA.

About Moss, yes he had a few issues as always, but let's not pretend Edwards has been some kind of prince here. He obviously gave up at times last year and refused to accept blame for his shittyness. Instead he chose to try to turn it on the fans because he was from Michigan etc. Total bush league stuff, so don't think he doesn't have a diva reputation around the league. Certainly not to Moss' extent, but it's there.

Im a browns fan not an Edwards fan, I just dont want to give away playmakers. If the offer is to our advantage then im all for it. And there's no way a WR can make a team suck as bad as the browns did last year, thats a team effort.

Why would you draft a WR #3 overall if your gonna give up on him and trade him for a 2nd or 3rd, thats not getting value while you can thats losing major value.

nmills said:

And Moss had all kinds of issues with him, kinda like T.O. and nobody wanted to take a chance on him thats why they only got a 4th

What you're forgetting is why we would trade him in the first place. The guy is not close to Fitz, and although Grossi jokingly mentioned a straight up swap for Edwards and Johnson awhile back, Edwards is not an equal value right now.

I realize you're an Edwards fan and are still clinging to his 2007 season, but the fact remains he was goddawful last year and a huge contributor to the suckage this team put forth. A claim can be made that he was first and foremost the reason the team started so terrible and along with DA basically put us too far behind to catch up. When we did try to catch up, he was right there to give the Ravens game away. Season over: kaput after that.

This is a young man's game, and Edwards has already had a full on knee reconstruction, so let's not act like he's still a spring chicken. He certainly should have gotten over the dropsies by now, and as far as "not giving up on young players" as you stated, that's one of this franchises biggest problems. Get value while you can for guys like this and move on. Right now is the time to do it and hopefully the Serial Drive Killer will be following closely behind. See ya DA and Edwards. Oh, and DA is a perfect example of what I'm talking about, he should have been moved last year at his highest value. Instead, our franchise chose to turn a blind eye to all his issues and acted like they would miraculously get resolved in the right cockpit.

I still am of the belief that Phillip's blind loyalty to DA ultimately cost him his job, and I think DA had a helluva lot to do with Edwards shitting the bed. Edwards is the kind of guy who needs a solid chemistry with his QB, and that's not possible with someone like DA.

About Moss, yes he had a few issues as always, but let's not pretend Edwards has been some kind of prince here. He obviously gave up at times last year and refused to accept blame for his shittyness. Instead he chose to try to turn it on the fans because he was from Michigan etc. Total bush league stuff, so don't think he doesn't have a diva reputation around the league. Certainly not to Moss' extent, but it's there.

@riffer-x said:

That's not how it works. Sure, there is a basis to go by a lot of times, but it certainly doesn't dictate the future trade barriers. Randy Moss garnered a 4th round pick, remember?

As far as Winslow/Shockey goes, Shockey brought more value than he should have. He is oft injured and not near the player Winslow is, so technically, Winslow should have garnered more. Obviously, although Winslow is younger, his injury history and shortening career were mitigating factors, along with his contract coming up. All in all, the teams gaining the picks from both of these overrated players will make out in the long run.

The same principal holds true for Edwards. If we can get a high second and a third for example, that's a win win. If it were an actual first, there is no way we would be getting a third and a sixth with it, more like a first and a seventh or a player.

I for one would jump for joy with a first rounder and something else, and Mancock would be stupid not jumping on that IMO.

No what im saying is the going rate for a young top tier receiver is around a 1st and 3rd. What would you expect to get outta Fitzgerald or Calvin Johnson.

And Moss had all kinds of issues with him, kinda like T.O. and nobody wanted to take a chance on him thats why they only got a 4th

nmills said:

Just because a trade didnt work in your favor doesnt mean the trade value of a player of the same position isnt worth the same

So what you're saying is since Dallas made a totally Retarded trade with Detroit that all other trades will be based on those values? The whole league laughed at Dallas and their desperation even before the trade turned into a colossal failure.

That's not how it works. Sure, there is a basis to go by a lot of times, but it certainly doesn't dictate the future trade barriers. Randy Moss garnered a 4th round pick, remember?

As far as Winslow/Shockey goes, Shockey brought more value than he should have. He is oft injured and not near the player Winslow is, so technically, Winslow should have garnered more. Obviously, although Winslow is younger, his injury history and shortening career were mitigating factors, along with his contract coming up. All in all, the teams gaining the picks from both of these overrated players will make out in the long run.

The same principal holds true for Edwards. If we can get a high second and a third for example, that's a win win. If it were an actual first, there is no way we would be getting a third and a sixth with it, more like a first and a seventh or a player.

I for one would jump for joy with a first rounder and something else, and Mancock would be stupid not jumping on that IMO.

@ytownbrownsbacker said:

In other words, a player who thinks he's bigger then the game.

How much did Pittsburgh suffer when Plaxico left. Now, look at what he has done to New York. Guys like this don't know how to live with their fame. They play when they have to. Just enough to get us to want them because when they're right they can win a game for you.

Plaxico's problems were off the field, Braylon hasnt had issues off the field. Whats he done to New York, he took them to the superbowl. Braylon had one bad year, as did the entire team. Sure hes gonna drop some balls but hes gonna make up for them with extraordinary catches and he's still very young. We gotta quit giving up on young guys that show so much potential, these guys came in as rookies and were expected to be leaders on a very weak team. Thats alot of pressure on a 23 year old when your playing a mans game. When you were young and someone attacked you, I would expect you to defend yourself. Thats what braylon did, just give him a chance to mature.

@riffer-x said:

Edwards is not going to all of a sudden catch everything thrown to him. Dude has been dropping balls since high school and I'm sick of this franchise trotting out guys who can't hang onto the ball. Dating back to Michael Tyson Dyson Jackson, through Dr. Q, Bryant, Northcant and Edwards, it's a never ending cycle. Now we have people waiting on the great Paulie Hubbard to be our next savior. Another in the long line of guys who look the part but can't play the part.

what do you mean you cant compare what dallas gave up, thats how trade values are determined. The Saints gave a 2nd and 5th last year for Shockey and that wasnt considered a good trade either but we still got a 2nd and 5th for winslow.

Just because a trade didnt work in your favor doesnt mean the trade value of a player of the same position isnt worth the same

nmills said:

You can't compare what Dallas gave up for Williams to Edwards' situation. First of all, Dallas just made one of the worst trades in recent memory, and that's no BS.

Edwards is not going to all of a sudden catch everything thrown to him. Dude has been dropping balls since high school and I'm sick of this franchise trotting out guys who can't hang onto the ball. Dating back to Michael Tyson Dyson Jackson, through Dr. Q, Bryant, Northcant and Edwards, it's a never ending cycle. Now we have people waiting on the great Paulie Hubbard to be our next savior. Another in the long line of guys who look the part but can't play the part.

nmills said:

Man he reminds me of Plaxico when he was in Pittsburgh. Always plays well when in a contract year. All the talent in the world but too many distractions that affect his play week to week.

In other words, a player who thinks he's bigger then the game.

How much did Pittsburgh suffer when Plaxico left. Now, look at what he has done to New York. Guys like this don't know how to live with their fame. They play when they have to. Just enough to get us to want them because when they're right they can win a game for you.

@riffer-x said:

It's an absolute no brainer to move this guy right now IMO. His value is at its peak and we get rid of an underachieving pretty boy. His contract will be off the books and we get commensurate value for him while we still can before his contract is up. It's easy to spin his season last year as a fluke to other teams and attribute it to the collapse, but this guy still has major value in league circles even though we know the guy will ALWAYS drop footballs. If Winslow can demand a 2 and 5?, what will Edwards command?

If we can snag a 2 and 3 or 2 and 4 I say fire away right now. I'm still holding out hope DA can bring us a 2, but say it's even a 3 what are we looking at here? We could quite possibly have 5 first day picks, and that's being conservative. Right now, I'm not comfortable with anybody at pick 5 and would love to move down and grab another 1st day pick.

If we do stand pat, I'm comfortable with Crabtree coming right in and taking the number one role over Edwards. The kid can catch, and that's the main thing this team needs is stability that Quinn can count on to catch. Crabtree should be ready as a rookie and his 5 pick contract would be similar to what Edwards signed as the third pick, so in theory we'll be saving in the long run. By the slight chance in hell that Edwards stays and has a huge year, there is no way he resigns with us without breaking the bank, so his value is now. People afraid that we have nothing to replace Edwards with shouldn't fret, the guy flat out sucked last year. I feel a lot of his decline was attributable to DA stemming from the 2007 lay outs, I really do.

I am for a clean out on this roster and stockpiling high picks (but not high enough to glutton the cap) to go along with this new regime. Please move DA and enough of pretending Lewis has anything left, so there's more cap space to be had.

The chance is now for this new regime to stock this team with their own young talent to fit what they're doing. They can gut this thing and do it right, all while keeping the cap in good shape. It just makes too much sense to me, and this is the perfect draft to do it.

Since Dallas gave a 1st, 3rd, 6th for Roy Williams thats what Kokinis will expect for Edwards, and if they cant get it I think he'll be here next year. With him coming in next year wanting to prove what he can do again, I think he's poised to redeem himself, then we can sign him to a long term contract or of he wants out we can franchise him and trade him for alot more value than this year

It's an absolute no brainer to move this guy right now IMO. His value is at its peak and we get rid of an underachieving pretty boy. His contract will be off the books and we get commensurate value for him while we still can before his contract is up. It's easy to spin his season last year as a fluke to other teams and attribute it to the collapse, but this guy still has major value in league circles even though we know the guy will ALWAYS drop footballs. If Winslow can demand a 2 and 5?, what will Edwards command?

If we can snag a 2 and 3 or 2 and 4 I say fire away right now. I'm still holding out hope DA can bring us a 2, but say it's even a 3 what are we looking at here? We could quite possibly have 5 first day picks, and that's being conservative. Right now, I'm not comfortable with anybody at pick 5 and would love to move down and grab another 1st day pick.

If we do stand pat, I'm comfortable with Crabtree coming right in and taking the number one role over Edwards. The kid can catch, and that's the main thing this team needs is stability that Quinn can count on to catch. Crabtree should be ready as a rookie and his 5 pick contract would be similar to what Edwards signed as the third pick, so in theory we'll be saving in the long run. By the slight chance in hell that Edwards stays and has a huge year, there is no way he resigns with us without breaking the bank, so his value is now. People afraid that we have nothing to replace Edwards with shouldn't fret, the guy flat out sucked last year. I feel a lot of his decline was attributable to DA stemming from the 2007 lay outs, I really do.

I am for a clean out on this roster and stockpiling high picks (but not high enough to glutton the cap) to go along with this new regime. Please move DA and enough of pretending Lewis has anything left, so there's more cap space to be had.

The chance is now for this new regime to stock this team with their own young talent to fit what they're doing. They can gut this thing and do it right, all while keeping the cap in good shape. It just makes too much sense to me, and this is the perfect draft to do it.

WR isn't a must and you gotta draft a must at 5.

But I'd still take him at #5.

1st round....#29

2nd round...#45 and #60

3rd round....#91

I could see #29 and #45 straight up, or #29,#60, and #91

@alendor said:

Yea but if your able to get a player and a draft pick or just 2 draft picks then your able to address 2 positions on your team for 1.

The cowboys gave a 1st, 3rd, and 6th for Roy Williams and a 7th, If we can get a 1st and 3rd id do it in a heartbeat.

@alendor said:

I agree with your reasoning.

What isn't mentioned is if Edwards is a Mangini type player.

I tend to think not and would place the odds pretty high Edwards is in a new uniform to start the season.

Over on NFL Network Dukes & Davis have Curry "falling" to us. It seems Chiefs HC Haley will take Crabtree because of his success in AZ with Fitz & Boldin.

I sure hope so.

mz. said:

Absoxxxxinlootly....if we are only going to get a late round third next year when BE bolts to a big city market to promote his modeling carreer...hell yes. get a second rounder for his ass right now and draft Hakkem nicks in the second !

Kokinis said:

"Speed issue? The only speed issue I've seen so far is him running by people, so I'm not sure what speed issue you're referring to. I think when he does time, whether here or at his school, you match it to the tape, match it to his competition, and try to project it against NFL corners and safeties and linebackers and stuff like that.

I'm not too concerned about Michael's speed right now because right now on tape I see him running pretty good."

Look, Year One of any new FO is a de facto rebuilding year.

And the only way to enjoy a rebuilding year is to focus on the BUILDING.

And for building you need bricks, and lots of 'em.

So, I support the start from scratch philosophy 100%.

I mean, good Lord, can you imagine starting any combination of Quinn, Crabtree, Orakpo, Wells, Greene, CMIII, Sintim, etc. THIS year? Four or even FIVE rookie talents in ONE draft, not even counting Day Two guys?

And then watching them all play together for 4-10 years, along with JT, DQ, EW, BMac, et. al.?

That would be worth my entertainment dollar, for sure. Far better than watching BE try to catch and DA try to throw again, anyway.