@miktoxic said:

Eh, that's decently close. I'd say Tebow has the fire, though.

Also... mik's irony detection meter is in need of adjustment...

@gftchris said:

No. Mariota is not the whiny little bitch that Cutler is.

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:

tebow and manziel.

wink.

@miktoxic said:

You're clearly speaking in generalities here and not referencing any two players specifically.

some people see a fiery talented leader. to others they might see a scumbag who screams out profanities in a public setting in school towards women with women present, which would have gotten most of us back in the day beaten to with in an inch of their lives from their mother or father.

no thanks.

@tour2ma said:

Im with you 100%....

@mudfly said:

Just too close to home with JG and the fact that, at that part of the draft, there are too many other players Id rather have....

Plus just because you say "more than character" does not mean character is completely ignored.

@calfoxwc said:

lol. It's a balance of all things. Mariotta plays like he has fire, but his temperament says otherwise.

Winston is amazing- and very, very smart. Smart enough to grow up and make a franchise proud ?

We'll have to wait and see.

Back to football for me as well...

Balance? Absolutely... we are bound to give different weight to different factors in the abstract. And on top of that we are going to see different things in individual cases.

In Winston I see overwhelming talent and leader qualities. Certainly enough to overcome any character reluctance I might have.

In MM I have not seen the fire on the field... nor have I seen joy. And that troubles me. Combined with his off-field persona (as most recently exhibited in Gruden School), I see a kid who is still not comfortable in his skin. Were I scouting him (and I just thought of this), then I'd spend time with his family. I'd want to be sure he has been playing purely because it was what he has wanted to do, and not because it was expected of him by Dad, peers, whomever...

@mudfly said:

Very good example with JG. JG's history of putting football after partying wasn't any secret; and the trend didn't lie to us unfortunately.

When the Browns got their record to 6-3 last year - all I could think of was wait until we get Josh Gordon back on the field. To see a guy that didn't finish routes, adjust to coverages or look anything close to the guy we saw in 2013 - was an epic disappointment. If anything, our passing game got worse. That's probably why a lot of people don't share my intrigue for a big WR early on in this draft. I can tell you 1 big WR I don't want coming here is Green-Beckham.

Character and heart are separate entities; but I think it's important to dig deep enough in the research to find both. By that I mean, research the work ethics and what types of kids these guys have been more than just their last 2-3 years of college.

@texasag1969 said:

Just too close to home with JG and the fact that, at that part of the draft, there are too many other players Id rather have....

@mudfly said:

But you would not take D G-B? A bit of a paradox there methinks.

@tiamat63 said:

Hey, I thought you were dead.......

@tour2ma said:

Oh yeah, when you had a minute I've been meaning to tell you that you've been fucking up the whole time with this forum thing.

@gftchris said:

I would too(at least the $ and scouting part).....but I would hate to post a great draft and still spend everyday being shredded by a bunch of no nothings second guessing my every step.....my skin is just too thin for that type of job I guess.....

@mudfly said:

Seriously? That has to be such a sweet job, I'd love to be doing that.

@calfoxwc said:

Its tough......thats why I always say that Im glad NOT to be Ray Farmer...ha!

Winston is amazing- and very, very smart. Smart enough to grow up and make a franchise proud ?

We'll have to wait and see.

when I look at Winston vs Mariota(for example)....I see 2 guys, both with great stats...

Then I see Winston as the guy with the huge heart, fire to win and love for the game....(and character questions)

While I see Mariota as the good character, no red flag guy...but with little heart and no obvious love for the game. Just kinda ho hum.

So, then it gets hard...cause do you choose character or heart??? (lots of good character-huge heart guys fail too....like Tebow for example)..

I gotta say I dont have the answer and base my opinions on each separate scenario....

Examples:....

Id avoid Paul Dawson or Green-Beckham at all costs, because their red flags are HUGE....and..

Id avoid Mariota simply because I feel he "doesn't" have a tremendous love of the game or the huge heart needed to be a leader and will his team to victory....

But, Id take Winston, because I think he has a huge heart, loves the game and the character things(to me) are typical college kid stuff and nothing that really concerns me going forward(drugs or criminal tendencies would scare me more)....

Im avoiding other top raters like Armstead(no heart) and Gregory(stupid & drugs) for similar reasons....

In the end....I think "play like a Brown" is more about heart and talent, than it is character......so, Browns would love a high effort/low character guy like Ray Lewis, but would probably hate a good character/low effort guy like Jay Cutler(for example)....

Gotta say....they did keep Johnny and dump Hoyer.....and Hoyer had him with the character/love of the game(and town) thing(by a mile).....

@calfoxwc said:

Mud, we are talking everything. I just ran afoul of Tour and his stats once, that's all.

I wouldn't bring it up now, but Tour and Tiam gave me some crap, so I'm simply

responding with some negative attention back, okie dokie?

I never said "no" to stats. But using them to make yourself look like

your opinions are superior is nonsense.

And nobody is talking about "no stats". That's dumb. My beef is usiing them

as the main determinator, when red flags render those stats useless.

when a terrific player in college ends up a dud in the pros. Mike Junkin

had outstanding stats.

So supporting my opinion with the basis for my opinion is a bad thing? And here I thought that's what forums were all about...

I wouldn't bring it up now, but Tour and Tiam gave me some crap, so I'm simply

responding with some negative attention back, okie dokie?

I never said "no" to stats. But using them to make yourself look like

your opinions are superior is nonsense.

And nobody is talking about "no stats". That's dumb. My beef is usiing them

as the main determinator, when red flags render those stats useless.

when a terrific player in college ends up a dud in the pros. Mike Junkin

had outstanding stats. Ryan Leaf had outstanding stats.

Let's put it in historical perspective. Ryan Leaf, runner up for the Heisman, If I remember

correctly. The other qb contending for the first pick....Peyton Manning.

The team that went with character won the day. The team that was wowed by the stats...

blew it badly. That's simply my philosophy about it all.

Leaf had the stronger arm, yada yada jibber jabber. I would never have drafted him, forget the freakin

stats. That's how I see Winston - a big risk outside of the stats.

@calfoxwc said:

So, the larger part is heart & character?....

How do you measure that with 400 hopefuls waiting to get drafted????.....especially when you're not using stats to rate them?

Do you have a couple examples of some "no stats -big heart" guys that we should be drafting this year?....and, if you do(Im hoping), can you tell me how that was determined?