@tour2ma said:

Ha!....got me there......

To clarify.....Im equating a kneel down TB to a fair catch.......

@thenew23 said:

Nor would I......

@mudfly said:

And the Browns were WAY above the curve, returning 70% of their KO's.....

@thenew23 said:

Look past those stats... how many of our 70% were "stupid" returns from the endzone that ended up getting us nowhere past the 20 that should've been touched back instead...?

Why look past the stat when it's real?......I dont know. How many were stupid returns??....I just know "if" we're returning 70%, then a good return man would be a good thing to have....and if the point is that we shouldnt even be returning kicks, then Pettine is the one to tell....not me(cause i absolutely love watching kick returns)...

@the-gipper said:

The stat we need to look at is "average field position following returned kickoffs"

Agreed....on KO's we return....we obviously want the best return possible.....(this is just common sense)(isnt it??).....

We already endured this scenario on Punts and it was brutal watching fair catch after fair catch......So I would hate to see the same happen with KO's....

@thenew23 said:

Again, I don't know where you are getting that I said "reserve a roster spot just for a kick returner".

And I think it is you who are looking at the wrong stat:

The stat you gave give average field position following kickoffs. We all admit that on average 50% of KOs result in touchbacks.

The stat we need to look at is "average field position following returned kickoffs" in other words...exclude touchbacks.

Then that 5.3 yard difference might double.

@mudfly said:

Look past those stats... how many of our 70% were "stupid" returns from the endzone that ended up getting us nowhere past the 20 that should've been touched back instead...?

@the-gipper said:

Josh Cribbs of the Colts average 32.0 yards per return on 19 returns last year. Adam Jones of the Bengals had 27 returns for a 31.3 yard average. Jacoby Jones had 32 returns for a 30.6 yard average.

The Cleveland Browns averaged 21.6 yards per kick return on 38 total returns.

You're looking at the wrong statistic. Yards per return includes yards in the endzone. Some of those returns could've have been just productive with a kneel down.

Average starting field position following a kickoff for the Browns last year was at the 20.00 which ranked 30th last year. The best in the NFL was at the 25.30 (Cincy) which is a difference of 5.30 yards... Not exactly a "whole first down," but I guess not exactly "Nothing." Still, not worth a roster spot just for a KR. As long as we have somebody who can kneel when he should, and run it out when he should we will be okay...

I could be wrong. Maybe I'll put in the field position numbers and see if I find a correlation with the "Drive success rate," and see what that looks like. I don't have the time right now.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/drivestatsoff

@mudfly said:

No, that is not what I advocate. (though couldn't it depend on the guy.....Cribbs was certainly worth a roster spot in his prime). Normally, yes, the KR/PR needs to have other duties: RB/WR/DB etc.

@the-gipper said:

And the Browns were WAY above the curve, returning 70% of their KO's.....

I agree with New23 though, that creating a roster spot just for kick a returner (or punt returner) isnt a good move.....

See this source.....leaguewide it appears that it was just about 50/50 touchbacks vs. kicks returned.

@thenew23 said:

OK, so, 50% of kickoffs are touchbacks. That means 50% of them are returned. Josh Cribbs of the Colts average 32.0 yards per return on 19 returns last year. Adam Jones of the Bengals had 27 returns for a 31.3 yard average. Jacoby Jones had 32 returns for a 30.6 yard average.

The Cleveland Browns averaged 21.6 yards per kick return on 38 total returns.

What that means is that the Browns offense was put in a full first downs distance hole on 50% of their drives after an opponents score (or at the beginning of the game or at the half) compared to some of our closest competitors as a result of our kick return game. When they basically all got to start their drives on average from the 30 yard line, where we had to start ours from the 20.....that makes a big difference. Ask any of our offensive coaches/QB/players if they would like to start their drives on average 10 yards down the field....see what they say.

Field position is huge in the NFL.......a kick returner that can give you a 10 yard head start is huge.

(of course, it is not all on the return man.....the kick blocking has to also be taught right...I don't know is our ST coaches did a very good job of that.)

@the-gipper said:

Didn't say anything about punt returns. Just kickoff returns.

Last year there were 6 total KR TDs in the entire NFL. In 2010, the year before they moved it to the 35, there were 23. Also, last year, the top 32 return men averaged 24.2 kickoff returns over the course of the season with 45 (Devin Hester) being the most, while in 2010 the top 32 return men averaged 40.2 returns with 60 (Marc Mariani) being the most.

Kick returner has just become a position of little-to-no importance IMHO. If I was a coach/GM, I wouldn't factor that position into any type of roster move I was considering. I would just prepare 2-3 guys who I already know will make the team during the offseason. Basically, all you need is somebody out there who can catch and knee it, but mostly they will just watch the ball go over your head, which just about anybody can do...

Punt returner is an entirely different story...

@tour2ma said:

That is why Cribbs was so good. He was big and hit holes hard. Benjamin, smaller, shiftier made a better punt returner.

Maybe Duke Johnson can be the new Eric Metcalf? That would be sweet.

@mudfly said:

... plus, returning punts is pretty dangerous, so yes, I think that they did want to protect the higher pick from that risk.....

I think the rule changes have really made kick returns more dangerous for the returner without the wedges of yesteryear and with the urgency attached to running our balls from the endzone... often deep in the endzone. Both are reasons I like size in return men these days.

Punts on the other hand... seems like there is still an ample chance to find a broken field... at least in the case of any over-kicked balls.

@thenew23 said:

Last year the Eagles had 2 kickoff returns for TDs, plus 2 punt returns for TDs. The Rams and Packers both also had 2 punts returned for TDs. That certainly helps a team. And the Ravens and Chiefs had about a 28 yard average return on kickoffs, compared to 21 yards for the Browns. A seven yard head start on average for a drive certainly can help an offense.

@mudfly said:

Well, I don't remember Moore doing anything spectacular in the return game. In fact, in checking....he only made 13 returns and average 24.8 ypr.....but his long return was all of 32 yards. Nothing at all to write home about. Still not satisfactory in my book.

@the-gipper said:

@mudfly said:

@the-gipper said:

I think last year they were satisfied with Moore as the kick returner, so no reason to change up.......

It was "punt" returner that we really had issues with and Gilbert has never done that.....plus, returning punts is pretty dangerous, so yes, I think that they did want to protect the higher pick from that risk.....

They're working out new guys though...

OTA's has Benji, Tramon and Duke working at punt returner....

And Benji, Gilbert and Duke working at kick returner....

The head scratcher for me last year was the fact while Gilbert wasn't being very productive as a DB, why didn't they give him some return duties? He was one of the best in college when he played, no?

Were they just trying to protect their #8 overall investment?

@mudfly said:

When Hofstra had a football program there were 2 NFL teams happy they had WRs like Wayne Chrebet and Marques Colston.

The Buffalo Bills team that went to 4 straight AFC Championship Games found a DII WR named Andre Reed from Kutztown State. They also drafted Don Beebe out of Chadron State and found TE Pete Metzlaars from Wabash State's basketball team.

If you have the right scouting dept that knows exactly what it's looking for in a player - I lived in Western, NY when Buffalo was finding a nice assortment of small school guys to go with their big name stars like Bruce Smith, Jim Kelly, Thurman Thomas, Cornelius Bennett, and Shane Conlin and others. The last AFC team to knock them off before their run was our Cleveland Browns thanks to 2 gigantic momentum busters from Clay Matthews' INT at the goal and Eric Metcalf's kickoff return for a TD. I keep wondering about how much bellyaching we'd be hearing about Justin Gilbert if we tapped his return game skills in any of those air tight games we lost 2nd half leads or late tie scores in. Metcalf's ultimate value was never the position he was drafted to play - it was in his ability to beat Pittsburgh by 2 returns for scores on a day we got outplayed or in the playoff game I just spoke of.

That could have come in handy vrs Jax when we had an early lead, lost it, and decided to wing it throwing Poyer out there to misjudge a punt giving Jax the ball inside our 10 yard line. Not much to question with our coaching staff in 2014 except that; and whoever watched JJ Watt on film deciding he was the weakest link to exploit while an 8 time Pro Bowl Tackle like Joe Thomas had a rookie he outweighed by about 50 pounds as a refreshing alternative to getting tackled for losses all day. I kept hoping an alarm clock would wake me up from that Houston game.

But your point about our OL is great,,,,they are good enough to really test these guys and expose the players vs posers.....

lots of questions and surprises yet to come with this DL.....thats for sure!

@mudfly said:

Cant say Ive ever even heard of him,,,,,is he supposed to be good?......do tell.....

He was on a few "diamond in the rough" posts pre-draft. 6'5", 295, sub 5 second 40 time. Played division II ball and dominated in the trenches, despite originally being a WR going into college.

He packed on about 80 lbs of pure muscle over the last two-three years. Guy looks like he's carved out of stone and seems to be a gym rat.

His technique is sloppy, his pad height is too high and he basically won most of his battles by overpowering at the point of attack, but he has solid inside pass rush moves and his pursuit is above average. He has a nose for the ball and there's multiple times where he disappears into a sea of players, fights his way through and finishes the play.

He'll need refinement, but subbing in against our OL in practice should greatly help smooth out some rough edges.

He'll need to put on about 15 more pounds to be a perpetual inside player, but I think the FO likes him more for his athletic ability and clean up. I expect him to play primarily edge and ocassionally bump into a 3-tech, depending on the package.

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:

Cant say Ive ever even heard of him,,,,,is he supposed to be good?......do tell.....

@calfoxwc said:

Slater is my vote for this year's Taylor Gabriel. Without even taking so much as a look at him, I feel like he's not only going to make the team, but he'll be a plus contributor and will get some looks.