Stuart said:

He'd get the same grief regardless where he played. Everybody loves a winner and if you lose you're a bum. Was Jim Kelly a big loser because he lost 4 Super Bowls? So if you want to believe those articles- I'm not going to waste my time reading them) Then I suppose you would have to consider Karl Malone (even though he's #2 in all time scoring & had HOFer John Stockton as his point guard), Patrick Ewing, & Charles Barkley even bigger losers- as none of them despite their greatness (HOFers all) ever won a title.

BTW- I would bet the ranch IF Le Bron had stayed in Miami, they would have made the Finals, and had the same result- losing to Golden State. You would have seen the same crap posted about Le Bron. BTW, Le Bron isn't Jordan- the closest comparisons would be to Oscar Robertson and Elgin Baylor- and I'd bet money none of those guys who wrote those articles ever saw them play. And Baylor couldn't win a Championship even paired with another (LOL all time bum) Wilt Chamberlain.

Stuart said:

@hoorta said:

Not saying Jordan doesn't belong in the conversation as the greatest ever- but Le Bron has lost two of those finals backed up by essentially NOBODY. Let's look down the roster of the losing Cavs team this year. Delly- UFA STARTING against the league MVP. New York loved JR s so much- they forced the Cavs to take him off their hands if they wanted Shumpert. Subtracting Le Bron and JR's two garbage time 3s, the Cavs went 2-14 from downtown in game 6. I suppose that's all on Le Bron. A real recipe to win a game.

If all you want to do is count Rings- then you have to say by the same logic Joe Montana was the greatest quarterback of all time. Actually that honor belongs to Otto Graham, who played in the equivalent of 10 straight Super Bowls.

FWIW, LBJ has already passed Jordan in career assists, he'll pass him next year in rebounds, and I have no doubt he'll go by him in points. I did a little previous calculation- it's not out of the question Le Bron could wind up on the top of the scoring heap to boot- depending on how long he decides to play. In case you forgot already- LBJ just put up the highest points\rebounds\assists numbers EVER in a finals- against the #1 rated defensive team in the NBA. One thing for certain- he's not hanging 'em up until he wins a Championship in Cleveland.

Other than the amusing Otto Graham thing, everything you say seems valid to me.

Since I'm no big fan of basketball I can only go by what I read.

Is it only about Cleveland hate?

I'm wondering if LeBron was playing anywhere else other than Cleveland, would he be undergoing the same scrutiny from writers like these...

Lebron greatest loser ever...

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/lebron-james-may-go-down-as-the-greatest-loser-ever/

Lebron, legacy fades with each loss...

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/06/lebron-james-legacy-loser-nba-finals-two-titles-mvp

Lebron, 5 reasons he's not the greatest..

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tyree-rush/5-reasons-why-lebron-jame_b_7607656.html

@hoorta said:

To get that #2 the question is: who is available, and would the Cavs have the cap room to sign him.

@the-gipper said:

Let's hope we can keep everybody healthy next year. I think if Love and Irving had been able to play in the Finals- we beat Golden State this year. Heck, we almost pulled out game one minus Love.

So JR wants to try FA- he's going to find out he's not as valuable as he thinks he is. If you want $$$ over a Championship- adios. The Guy is too streaky. To win it all in 2016 the Cavs need to replace the geriatric bench (Miller, Marion & Perkins) with better players. James Jones has shown in limited finals minutes he's not yet a total stiff. I have to wonder if Shumpert's bum shoulder affected his shooting against GS. What the Cavs REALLY need is a tall #2 that can score consistently, and play defense. Easier said than done. But with assistant GM Le Bron now in a "come on down and win a championship with me" mode- something he wasn't in his first go around- anything is possible. Need I add keeping rebounding machine Thompson on the roster is imperative.

@hoorta said:

If you just go by championships won then Jordan is only about half as good as Bill Russell, Bob Cousy, KC Jones, Sam Jones, John Havlicek, Tom Heinshon, Satch Sanders, Robert Horry.

Kareem and Scottie Pippin have just as many titles. I think that without Pippin there next to him, Jordan's record in the Finals is about the same as LeBron's.

Even before LeBron ever stepped onto the stage, in my personal rankings of the best player ever I had him only 4th or 5th.

I had Russell, Magic, Wilt, and Kareem over him.

Right here, today, with everyone of those players in their prime, I would choose those 4 over Jordan...and probably LeBron as well.

So at best I have Jordan #5 best overall.....and probably #6 with LBJ.

Stuart said:

Both will go down among the greatest to ever play the game. That is good enough for me.

I will say one thing about LBJ, though. His Herculean effort to bring his team to victory reminds me of few similar instances - at the COLLEGE basketball level.

One can point to Danny Manning, Larry Bird, Kemba Walker and Shabazz Napier as players who put their respective teams on their shoulders and carried them to ultimate victory (Bird, of course, fell one game short).

However, they were playing against college kids - not professional basketball players. This fact, alone, will go down as one of the - if not THE - finest individual efforts in the history of the NBA. Among the greatest players in the world.

Maybe in all of sports, not just the NBA.

Remarkable performance in the face of adversity.

Stuart said:

Not saying Jordan doesn't belong in the conversation as the greatest ever- but Le Bron has lost two of those finals backed up by essentially NOBODY. Let's look down the roster of the losing Cavs team this year. Delly- UFA STARTING against the league MVP. New York loved JR s so much- they forced the Cavs to take him off their hands if they wanted Shumpert. Subtracting Le Bron and JR's two garbage time 3s, the Cavs went 2-14 from downtown in game 6. I suppose that's all on Le Bron. A real recipe to win a game.

If all you want to do is count Rings- then you have to say by the same logic Joe Montana was the greatest quarterback of all time. Actually that honor belongs to Otto Graham, who played in the equivalent of 10 straight Super Bowls.

FWIW, LBJ has already passed Jordan in career assists, he'll pass him next year in rebounds, and I have no doubt he'll go by him in points. I did a little previous calculation- it's not out of the question Le Bron could wind up on the top of the scoring heap to boot- depending on how long he decides to play. In case you forgot already- LBJ just put up the highest points\rebounds\assists numbers EVER in a finals- against the #1 rated defensive team in the NBA. One thing for certain- he's not hanging 'em up until he wins a Championship in Cleveland.

@the-gipper said:

Honestly, I don't think Jordan ever faced a team in the Finals as good as Lebron has faced in the Spurs and Warriors.

And Jordan never won a Finals where say both Scottie Pippin and Dennis Rodman or Horace Grant were out injured, did he?

I think he has...the Lakers were a pretty good team.

Jordan outshines LeBron in every imaginable way.

Michael Jordan was 6-0 in the NBA finals

Kobe Bryant is 5-2

Magic Johnson was 5-4

Larry Bird 3-2

...and at the bottom is LeBron at 2-4.

Not a finals record you would expect from a superstar.

@the-cysko-kid said:

Honestly, I don't think Jordan ever faced a team in the Finals as good as Lebron has faced in the Spurs and Warriors.

And Jordan never won a Finals where say both Scottie Pippin and Dennis Rodman or Horace Grant were out injured, did he?

Thanks to the Cavs for playing "ALL IN"! Even after the loss, I stand in awe of their determination & heart.

Mike

@baconhound said:

As was said on another board- the reason the Cavs lost game 6 in particular- and the series in general- was- from three point land- they couldn't spit off a camel and hit sand. 6\26, Le Bron 2\10. And that number is deceiving- JR hit a couple when it was essentially garbage time.

Yeah- the Warriors sort of packed it in and made it tough to score in the paint- but it was just disgusting to see open three after open three get clanked.

@hoorta said:

Agreed Lebron should be the MVP regardless but JR Smith is a good shooter but that's about it. Curry shot the ball well in 3,4 & 5

@the-gipper said:

Sorry, my bad- wasn't paying attention.

@miktoxic said:

if you can't match GS's 3s (when they are on) with at least some of your own, you're going to lose.

Exactly. The Cavs lost when they started clanking those threes. Well Le Bron- the record for most points in a Finals game is 63 by Jordan- you may have to break it for the Cavs to have a chance to win tonight.

@baconhound said:

He's as good a shooter as Curry so he needs to play more.

Oh- so Curry finally starts playing like an MVP in game 5, and you have to start dragging up shit? MHO- Le Bron deserves the finals MVP- win or lose. JR's a streak shooter- great first half, lousy second. Overall- Smith has been cold the whole series.

@baconhound said:

He's as good a shooter as Curry so he needs to play more.

He's not as good a shooter as curry

@the-gipper said:

He's as good a shooter as Curry so he needs to play more.