None the less, it only makes sense he would make changes and hire his own guys for this years draft and going forward....

So far so good it would appear...

@flugel said:

I think there is a mindset for players the front office looked for this past draft. The Pac has a lot of east-west and pass happy offenses, I feel

the coaches and Farmer wanted to bring in players that can rush the passer, push the pocket and play well in space. Not to say players in other conferences can't, but it just so happened the BPA at the time whom fit the mold came from that conference.

@tour2ma said:

I'd forgotten that, but wasn't much of the change a case of Ray building his own staff?

Something he simply did not have time to do before the 2014 draft?

I'm certain it was the bulk of the reason for the change. However Farmer and Pettine have spoken ad nauseam about character being a big part of their draft evaluations. I'm quite sure that also played into the hands for the personnel change in scouting. Red flags that should have been uncovered were not.

@tiamat63 said:

I feel a good question is - do we believe it to be random coincidence that the scouting department was essentially gutted after the 14' draft?!

I'd forgotten that, but wasn't much of the change a case of Ray building his own staff?

Something he simply did not have time to do before the 2014 draft?

@tiamat63 said:

That is a good question. Is it also a coincidence we stayed in the Pac 12 for 7 of our 12 draft picks in 2015 after gutting the scouting dept?

Here's the thing though - I really like the last 2 off seasons. They began with a philosophy and specific plans to meet it. We haven't always had that here.

@mike-h said:

But you're a fan like the rest of us so it's very different what any of us would do. For example, Jameis Winston's last Head Coach (Jimbo Fisher) said he's a great kid. This is a classic example of a College Coach wanting his hand selected QB drafted first overall in the NFL draft. We know why that's important to Jimbo.

Along the same line, I doubt Brett Favre's college coach at So Miss warned Jerry Glanville - "you're never going to get him out of happy hour."

For all the excitement Manziel brought to A&M - do you think Kevin Sumlin gave us a full disclosure of what we could expect off the field from our new 21 year old QB last year?

@tour2ma said:

I was thinking a similar thing. Some backs can do the east-west running in HS and a small college, but the pros just eat you alive if you don't find the small crease they give you and get the most from it. The more you slide outside, the more they run you down without gaining yardage. The Browns want north-south runners who will take the 3-5 yard gain and control the ball.

As for West in particular, it's possible that contacts did not see any issues or thought them too insignificant to mention. "Talented kid who just needs to mature some," could be a reasonable assessment.

If ability to learn ended up being the issue in CLE, I can easily see why that might not have been an issue at Towson. Complexity levels surely are incomparable. Have to say that he seemed to learn blitz pick ups here.

I wonder if in the end it was West's running style that did not change with coaching. More of a flowing style that would take a hole if presented, but otherwise seemed to look for the edge... like a change-of-pace back minus the pace change.

Instead the staff may have been looking to create another decisive, Crow-style, one-cut back... and that was just not in West to bring out.

Be interesting to see what gives in TN.

@mudfly said:

Depends on how good of friends they were with their respective Browns connections, I guess.

If I was a coach and West was a shithead in the locker room, I wouldn't sugar coat it and lie to my friend whose career is on the line when making draft picks.

Id think that a lot of them protect their guys.....or want to see them get picked and succeed in the NFL....and/or have a greater allegiance to their own players than they do to some NFL scouts....

So, it wouldnt surprise me to find out college coaches back up their guys and avoid bad mouthing them on the way out....

West and Gilbert were superstars for their perspective college coaches......so, why would their coaches do something to hurt their chances as they walk out the door??....what do they have to gain by doing that?......

@mudfly said:

Cmon Tour, stop depressing yourself.....you, of all people, should understand he cant do all in one year....

Id say his approach at least has fixed some things, while just picking one player per area wouldnt have....

It's just that firefighting is a mode that organizations get into that can be very hard to break out of. It is not an approach that sustains long-term excellence.

@gftchris said:

Positivity time! Feeling less depressed now?

Actually, yes...

@mike-h said:

The Browns had inside knowledge being that they had Towson staff connections. So, I think it's a little more inexcusable than for someone without that type of information to make a judgement call like they did on a player who was as unteachable as West ended up being.

Is it possible that the connections were fans of the kid?

And was being unteachable the final, fatal flaw?

@mudfly said:

The Browns had inside knowledge being that they had Towson staff connections. So, I think it's a little more inexcusable than for someone without that type of information to make a judgement call like they did on a player who was as unteachable as West ended up being.

Farmer said something interesting that I remembered after the 2014 draft.

"It's about getting a full, comprehensive report," Farmer said. "Who is the guy as a football player? What's his football knowledge? What are his work habits? What's his ability or demeanor to want to eat the tape and work on it and grind on it? What's his level of intelligence? Everybody won't have the same boxes checked. There will be some blemishes on each of them. It depends on how bad those blemishes are."

It's possible West checked a lot more boxes than he didn't, and that he talked a good enough game to make Ray take a chance on him.

Whatever happened here is still a failure in process, because it's not an isolated example. Farmer and his staff took too many chances in the 2014 draft on players with questionable work habits or personal issues.

Universally being accepted by draft analysts should not be the equivalent of approval for NFL roster management executives. They are/should be better informed than anyone and attempt to minimize risk more effectively.

I covered that draft pretty closely and heard very little about West or Gilbert's issues.

@mike-h said:

@mike-h said:

Draftniks and analysts were universally praising Browns for skipping Ravens to select West in round 3.

So....if it was universally accepted as a coup by the entire draft community....how is it inexcusable that they didnt know?....(seems contradictory to me)

could it be that no one knew?....(you know, universally NOT known?)......

Id say lots(many, tons) of college players have maturity issues......lots and lots and lots.....and most of them just grow up and mature, right?

So, to say a guy like West(or Gilbert) should be flagged for immaturity, means that 1/2 the players drafted should also be....Most teams have to assume their picks will grow up and Im sure the Browns fit in that group.....

Its not like these guys have had issues with the law, or drugs, etc.....(like so many others who are picked).....

If we pass on every immature player, pretty soon no one is drafting guys like Moss, TO, Favre, Winston, Lynch, D. Sanders, etc etc......geez, the list is miles long......you just have to take your chances and win some and lose some......but there is no formula to which ones will mature and which ones will fail.....

@flugel said:

I enjoyed your other post, just read it now. But the bold above is simply not true.

Draftniks and analysts were universally praising Browns for skipping Ravens to select West in round 3.

- The DL got seriously beat up last year - nobody could have seen that coming. They were supposed to be one of the strengths of the team before the season.

- The RB stable - do you remember what it was before Farmer came in? Refresher - Edwin Baker was vying to be lead back with Chris Ogbonnaya. Willis McGahee had just rushed for about 200 yards on 200 carries. Then all of a sudden we have Tate, West & Crowell. Tate and West didn't fit the type of player we're looking for so were shipped out. Now even just Crowell and Duke, hugely upgraded over Baker, Oby & Lewis.

- Outside of a fresh-faced Josh Gordon, our receiving corps was Little, Bess, and who the fuck else? Now our problem is the guys we have are solid but not spectacular. A bunch of #2s, no #1. Well guess what, two years ago we had a bunch of #4s.

- Brandon "sacked by a flag" Weeden was our starting QB. Brandon "reverse underhand flip intercepted two weeks in a row" Weeden. McCown is a semi-solid journeyman, which is a huge upgrade from Brandon "catch my own batted pass and throw it again cos i know the rules really" Weeden. Forget the heisman winning young backup we're grooming to take over in a year - McCown + Davis > Weeden + McCoy/Hoyer

- Remember when our pass rushers were Sheard (respectable) and Frostee Rucker? Because I do. Now we have a double digit sack guy in Kruger, plus others on a par with Sheard.

Feeling less depressed now?

@tour2ma said:

Cmon Tour, stop depressing yourself.....you, of all people, should understand he cant do all in one year....

Id say his approach at least has fixed some things, while just picking one player per area wouldnt have....

@mudfly said:

All I see is a guy attacking the problems by drafting, signing UDFA's and UFA's....anything....to bring in the necessary people to build the team......and, apparently, he's smart enough to know that they dont always come via the first round.....

The common source of the recruiting failures has been an issue for concern, but hopefully in the past.

Just got a little uncomfortable with your "attacking the problems" phrase. Transition from that kind of "firefighting" mode to controlled foresight has to be the Organization's next challenge, otherwise we end up in a state of perpetual whack-a-mole.

Attack the 2ndary... surprise the D-line is a problem.

Attack the D-line...

surprise your RB stable is nearly empty...

your O-line is only 6 deep...

your TEs are stacked 4-deep... with average talent.

... and then there's the QB situation...

Damn... I'm depressing myself....

@flugel said:

Good post Fluges......

Bottom line.....Farmer is supposed to improve our talent anyway he can.....

Last season we were weak in the defensive backfield and he brought in Gilbert, Kwaun Williams, Donte Whitner and Pierre Desir....and created one of the best(if not THE best group in the league)....yet, hes considered an ass because of Gilbert?

And we had NO running backs(none, zip, zilch, nada)....and he brought in Tate, West and Crowell(as well as the Duke).....yet, he's an ass because of West?....

And then in 2014 our D line struggled, so Farmer goes and gets Starks, Meder, Cooper and Shelton......but, for some reason, there are some who think he should be fired because Mayle didnt work out or West was cut or something.....???

So, in 2 years, he has completely revamped our DB's, our DL and seriously upgraded our talent at WR, RB, LB(Dansby, Orchard) & OL(Bito, Erving) etc....and, Id say, while most position groups are vastly improved, not one single position has gotten worse

All I see is a guy attacking the problems by drafting, signing UDFA's and UFA's....anything....to bring in the necessary people to build the team......and, apparently, he's smart enough to know that they dont always come via the first round.....

A lot of teams just draft "a" player and place the burden on him to perform, while I see the Farmer bringing in multiples and forcing them to compete and earn their jobs....I think I prefer his method over 'draft and pray'......

@flugel said:

Point taken and good, well thought out post.

@jcam222 said:

The reason I asked who's everybody because it looked like you were insulting a lot of people in here. Therefore I appreciated you clarifying who you were talking about. Thank you.

I'm not trying to win or lose an argument with you. I'm trying to give you an angle you can feel better about as a fan than your concerns about incompetence or egotistical from the GM/Scouting Dept you mentioned above.

Believe it or not, I agree it sucked to learn a small school guy like West is a bad apple heading for a short career. However, neither one of us was at West's interviews as a small school prospect trying to impress an NFL GM considering taking him as high as the 3rd round of an NFL draft. People lie in interviews all the time so this doesn't look any different. I read a lot of mixed reviews about West pre-draft ranging from scouts that were impressed to ones that weren't. FWIW, small school programs love people seeing a player drafted from their program in terms of what it means for recruiting future players there - so who really knows what kind of info was shared or with-held about his work ethic. Irregardless, I don't think missing on West is unforgivable or sets us back.

Again, Farmer's job was to upgrade the running game starting with drafting Joel Bitonio in round 2 - who played like a solid first round draft pick. 2014 was the first time we were able to run between 2 Pro Bowl Linemen like Joe Thomas and Alex Mack since Steinbach went under the knife before the 2011 season. When you can't run inside of tackle on either side of Center - you start every play handcuffed so that was HUGE. Even better, Greco moved to the right side and played the best football of his career.

The other way to try to improve the running game was to draft a RB (which we did with West) and add a UFA like Crowe. Midway through the season, Crowe was averaging over 5 yards a carry while West was learning not to dance so much as he improved his ypc. He had to put forth some work to improve as the season unfolded even though he doesn't plan on doing all the little things that will keep him employed from here on out. Even Ben Tate had a 124 yard rushing performance vrs TN mixed in when we overcame a 28-3 deficit at TN.

I don't think you can go from 4-12 football in 2013 to overcoming a significant injury volume here in 2014 with a 7-4 start if the scouting dept isn't up to snuff. That doesn't add up to playing like a Brown. Adding Bitonio, Crowe and West improved our running game quite a bit last year. The good news is there was already a plan to draft a RB in 2015 who could add a dimension to our passing game and offer us a change of pace. West has already fooled another NFL franchise if they expect him to protect Mariota from blitzing LBers on occasion. I think any teams that were interested in West had the thought process/stereotype of a small school guy willing to work hard to prove he belongs in this league. For instance, If we jumped up ahead of Ozzie to draft him - what would make Ozzie so dumb and gullable to be intrigued by him? Maybe the people at Towson State weren't all that upfront or they miscalculated how he could handle some degree of success. Who knows? I'm just glad he's not our problem.

Also have to remember that Crow had issues at Georgia... well publicized ones.

The quiet 2015 so far makes me think ferreting out any issues was a 2014 problem. Hopefully a one-and-done problem that was a product of a new, first-time GM who was building a staff as he was building a team.

@jcam222 said:

It's hard to argue with your criticism because it appears to be spot on, for whatever reason. Missing on top round picks, but finding a few gems in UDFA has so far turned our drafts into a wash - however, if it continues, someone will have to be held accountable.