Belichick didn't like Kosar to begin with because he represented a power struggle and especially when he didn't follow the game plan and it was even worse after that one fluke touchdown that pissed the coach off.

WSS

@texasag1969 said:

Well if it is a question of "style" then why is he even keeping Manziel? Does he really think he can control that streak of innovative playmaking that befuddles "my way or the hiway" coaches like himself? If you could dissect and remake what it is that makes him special you'd probably ruin it in the process. JM has accommodated to the pocket player "style" that Pet wants, but when push comes to shove he's gonna pull one of those "Vintage Manziel" plays out nowhere that often leads to 6 points. If Pet can't stand that then he needs to either find a way to live with it or send him to Chip or Jerrah. Dallas once had a QB like that. And he won them a Superbowl after 5 years away in the Navy. Somehow his "by the numbers" coach found a way to live with Roger's "innovations".

Firstly, the 53-man roster is not Pet's to set. The game day 46 and the depth chart are his.

I don't think the last TD throw vs. TN is the whole story, Ag. Part of it? Sure, but I suspect there are other plays, probably reads not made, vs. TN that are in the mix.

If I'm close to correct, then the task is to elevate JM's core game. Agree it's a tricky business to rein in JM, but trying doesn't mean the goal is exorcizing all JFF moments for all time. More likely it's to make them less necessary much more of the time.

@tour2ma said:

If TMZ story is true, still only 3 of 53 on anonymous record...

Only disagree with "only reason"... main reason is style as Faded has been hammering on for days now. It's been at the root of the QB decision for 1-1/2 years now.

As for McCown... I'm in the he was not that bad camp... tough camp to be in with 3 deep balls finding the ground:

• - overthrew Gabe breaking free out of the best pocket of the day mid-Q2.
• - underthrew a wide open Gabe two-steps behind DB in early Q4.
• - badly underthrew an open Benji on the final drives opening play.

If anyone wants to stop their QB analysis with the above three plays... that's their prerogative.

I prefer to consider:

• The shot to Hart for 17 on 3rd and 6 in Q1; the first ball he cut loose.
• The seam route to Barn for 41 on the run in mid-Q2.
• The hook to Barn for 15 on 3rd and 10 in mid-Q2.
• The pure-timing shot to a hooking Benji's outside shoulder for 17 on 2nd and 16; DB was closing from inside.
• The patient series of 8 completions of between 5 and 10 yards in our first TD drive before...
• The pretty throw-on-the-run to Barn who turned it up for a 27-yd TD.
• The gorgeous pass he dropped into Hart's arms on the far sideline for 41 yards right before his second Gabe miss.
• The touch pass to Hawk at the back of the endzone was deflected by a fingertip of a completely stretched out Safety.
• The perfect ball he rifled to Gabe on the near sideline for 10 in mid-Q4.
• Final drive passes of 10, 19, 15 and 18 yards...

Good post. I think it's safe to say there were some synchronization issues, as l would expect from any QB in basically his first full game of the year with a team.

@texasag1969 said:

mik-the first half McCown looked like a rusty 36 y.o. coming back from a head injury. The 2nd half he looked like the player Pet thought he brought in and that is the only reason he gets the start over J-Man.

Only disagree with "only reason"... main reason is style as Faded has been hammering on for days now. It's been at the root of the QB decision for 1-1/2 years now.

As for McCown... I'm in the he was not that bad camp... tough camp to be in with 3 deep balls finding the ground:

• - overthrew Gabe breaking free out of the best pocket of the day mid-Q2.
• - underthrew a wide open Gabe two-steps behind DB in early Q4.
• - badly underthrew an open Benji on the final drives opening play.

If anyone wants to stop their QB analysis with the above three plays... that's their prerogative.

I prefer to consider:

• The shot to Hart for 17 on 3rd and 6 in Q1; the first ball he cut loose.
• The seam route to Barn for 41 on the run in mid-Q2.
• The hook to Barn for 15 on 3rd and 10 in mid-Q2.
• The pure-timing shot to a hooking Benji's outside shoulder for 17 on 2nd and 16; DB was closing from inside.
• The patient series of 8 completions of between 5 and 10 yards in our first TD drive before...
• The pretty throw-on-the-run to Barn who turned it up for a 27-yd TD.
• The gorgeous pass he dropped into Hart's arms on the far sideline for 41 yards right before his second Gabe miss.
• The touch pass to Hawk at the back of the endzone was deflected by a fingertip of a completely stretched out Safety.
• The perfect ball he rifled to Gabe on the near sideline for 10 in mid-Q4.
• Final drive passes of 10, 19, 15 and 18 yards...

@texasag1969 said:

not sure where the TMZ story and that tie in.....but ok....

New Headline: players speak out on Johnny, Ray Farmer better watch out for commish....

If I was Travis Benjamin I'd want Johnny to start. Or Andrew Hawkins. If I was Gary Barnidge I'd probably be happy with Josh.

Joe Thomas said as much when he hinted that the offensive line kind of likes a pocket passer so they didn't have to worry about where the hell the quarterback was going to be.

( probably some of the Steelers fans on this board would rather we had a different moderator, one that didn't fuck with their stupid screen names. . )

WSS

@miktoxic said:

mccown looked fine last week. if the D hadn't given the raiders a 2 touchdown lead at the half we wouldn't even be having this stupid ass discussion.

Damn, beat me to it. All this agreement up in here is creeping me out.

McCown looked like we expected him to look. He's not the problem. The defense is what's sinking my battleship.

But not sunk yet. No sirree.

I would like a win though. I don't really care how, or what QB.

@mudfly said:

And if the Commissioner is able to trace back the signing of Austin to that two year contract to our FO currently on suspension, the Browns will be even deeper in the crapper.

@texasag1969 said:

True or not....My feeling on that story is that it's damaging to the team and whoever said it was out of line and doing more harm than good....

ALL locker rooms have varied opinions on a LOT of things.....real pro's keep that shit in the Locker Room and not on TMZ...

So, the team is struggling with the Defense, running game and O line, yet the coach has to deal with questions about TMZ & Johnny supporters all week.....no wonder he is getting short when he's asked about this crap every day...

And, I will qualify that this is NOT directly Johnnys fault, per se......but it is a sign of the shit storm that constantly swirls around him....

Yesterday, Pat Mcmanamon was on WKNR and talked about this.....saying "he" thought our FO was completely fed up with 15 months of dealing with it......(and I think he knows)

Kind of a non-story but that's what sells papers.

WSS

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2015/09/tmz_stands_by_johnny_manziel_s.html

@miktoxic said:

Well that didn't last too long. Saw your 2:43 am post. LOL!

hiatus time.

@tour2ma said:

I just don't see the binary choice you do.

~edit and since that will either happen this year or next year and if the coach is on any kind of a deadline to win doing it next year pushes him into a third year of problems~

That's just my general observation, & I freely admit that you know a thousand times as much about the game than I do.

And as with many of these situations I would like to hear why you think otherwise. Seriously.

(and I don't believe that the last two games set anything in stone either way)

WSS

@miktoxic said:

@walterwhite said:

Sorry Mik, but you're truly talking out of your ass on this one.

The first half he was god awful and he's overthrown/underthrown receivers 2-3 times that would have led to big plays or TD's

Mik- glad you think McCown looked fine last week- it's certainly a minority opinion. The fans aren't blind- they saw exactly what they expected out of Josh- a less than thrilling journeyman dud. This wasn't the Seahawks the Browns were playing.

@miktoxic said:

Sorry Mik, but you're truly talking out of your ass on this one.

The first half he was god awful and he's overthrown/underthrown receivers 2-3 times that would have led to big plays or TD's

Zombo said:

I would describe it as my expecting success from Johnny while his fan club is hoping for success for Johnny, and stacking up the excuses in case it doesn't happen here and now.

War wants to know if I will blow my top if he has a terrible game.

Yes, I will.

Just like if your teenage son carelessly wrecked your car.

You would be furious with him. You would be disappointed in him. But he's yours. And you expect better from him in the future.

If Johnny "wrecks the car" on Sunday, I'd be back in his corner by Thursday or Friday.

I saw some very good things two weeks ago. Playmaking ability. I expect him to win this current cast, just like he did against the Tits.

There was a certain point where I/we knew Quinn didn't have it, McCoy didn't have it, Weeden didn't have it. And it didn't happen after one car wreck. It happened when they continually disappointed us when they should have been getting better.

It's been so long since we have had success, I think we forget to expect it.

I expect Johnny not to disappoint. To come along even better than Carr and Bridgewater. I expect big things from him.

And if it doesn't happen it is not because Gary Barnidge sucks or Cleveland is cursed. It's on him.

It's a tough league. Cleveland is a tough city. We need somebody tough to say "fuck the excuses, I'm winning here, and I'm winning now." I expect that person to be Johnny.

Zombo

I've read many a post on this board. I have said that I was a Carr

Guy on draft day,but as for Johnny this post is as goof as I have read

How I would adopt our current QB situations to my own! Now that the real

Johnny foosball has ARRIVED lets get on the rollercoaster and put our hands in

The air and enjoy the ride! And hope the photo at the end has us smiling!!! GO BROWNS

@furious-styles said:

Nah, mik was a wreck long before JFF showed up.