@clevfan4life said:

Again, I feel you guys should give a long look at an under philosophy with the personnel we have combined with what Pettine likes to do.

@tour2ma said:

Did slight the Bryant boys a tad perhaps, especially Armonty.

And so were clear, I'm not saying Bosa is not a top DL prospect, just not sold on a #1 overall status. So when I ask for a 2015 game, or two or three, to watch that makes the #1 case, I am being serious.

I'll work on that this weekend.

And so were clear, I'm not saying Bosa is not a top DL prospect, just not sold on a #1 overall status. So when I ask for a 2015 game, or two or three, to watch that makes the #1 case, I am being serious.

@tour2ma said:

armonty and desmond have a decent tool set. The others, not so much. Big reason I want Bosa, whether we stay in a 3-4 or move to 4-3. I see more pass rushing variety out of Bosa than any of our guys. I'd prefer we move to a 4-3 so that we could retain armonty and Orchard, both of whom I think make better 4-3 DE's although Orchard has proven we could use him on days we feel the need to drop one of the guys on the line into coverage more

@gftchris said:

Mack: injuries might be affecting that?

Thomas - penalties: he had 10 last season, 6 so far this, so he's on track for a better season penalty-wise

Hawkins: Not sure what's happened there, probably a change in OC did him in.

Gabriel: same. We're not getting the little guys open as much.

Crowell: no idea.

Haden - injuries. He's barely played, it's a lost season for him, and they won't rush him back, but try to give more game time to the kids under the guise of a decent excuse, not tanking the season.

Kruger - is the only one that has genuinely and without good reason regressed. It could equally be that last year was his career year and he's gone from an up year to a down year, and is just a 5-6 sack guy, as he was in his first year here.

Nice analysis... I'd only add that:

- Hawk's career year was fueled in part by being fed last year by a QB that suited his game better than either of our 2 starters to date, Hoyer. Hoyer had the best combination of read and release while Hawks routes did and still do depend upon timing. It's possible that AD may now step to the head of that column. Also possible that AD has been throwing to Hawk a lot on the side as Hawk has been working his way back.

- Both Hawk and Gabe have been pushed a little deeper in the rotation by Benji's re-emergence and Hart's addition.

@mudfly said:

Bottom line, We need versatile OLB's that play multiple roles and we dont have them......and that is not Pettines fault.....(which is my point)....

At minimum it would be nice if one of the rushers had multiple moves...

@gftchris said:

Id say that rushing the passer is what they are supposed to do well.....although they never get any sacks.....

Kruger rushes 83% of his pass snaps...(last year he rushed 88%)(so, about the same)

Armonty rushes 85% of his pass plays....

Orchard rushes 60% of his pass plays....

Mingo rushes 40% of his pass plays....

So, Id say coach IS playing to their strengths.....as Orchard and Mingo are best at cover and Kruger and Armonty are rush only guys.....and, in a very small percentage of pass plays(1 in 10), they switch up to keep the other team honest...OR....the other team(QB) forces the issue by taking advantage of these guys limitations and adjusting at the line to force a Kruger or Armonty into coverage, when they'd rather not be....

We could go on......but in my world, these OLBs aint getting it and no coach would be getting what he needs from them....3-4 or 4-3.....if you cant tackle and you cant cover, then you are not a good olb no matter what the system is.....period....

And the % I just posted are pretty consistent with the rest of the OLB's in the league....our guys are being asked to do what ALL of the 3-4 OLB's are doing...every team....same percentages....

@mudfly said:

Dropping Kruger, not rushing Orchard, not playing to the strengths of our guys and not putting them in a position to succeed, *that* is on the coach, not the GM. Last year we played Jabaal Sheard at left OLB prety much every snap, IIRC, and now in New England they have him lining up all over the shop, at OLB, DE, I think even blitzing ILB at one point, but all playing to his strengths.

What does each guy do well? Maybe Orchard's a hand fighter, Kruger's a power guy, Mingo's a speed guy, so create mismatches against opposing linemen based on that. Have Mingo rush opposing equivalent of Mitchell Schwartz and his world renowned weakness to a speed rush, for example.

@gftchris said:

There it is.........thank you!....

And...since they know whats coming.....now, coach is just trying to mix that up a little by having Kruger drop or Orchard rush occasionally......it only makes sense....

Of our four OLBs now, Mingo is obviously the cover guy, but if he's obviously the cover guy, he's also not rushing; Kruger's obviously a (bull)rusher, but a liability in coverage. When a QB sees those two on the field he knows where pressure's coming from, because they're so one-dimensional.

@gftchris said:

Well...Im simply trying to defend Pettine for using the guys he has, because he is under attack, but has no OLBs to use....

We were "supposed" to be built as a 3-4 team going back 3 years now.....we were 3-4 with Horton....and Pettines system is 3-4 too.....so, we can say Pettine is wrong for wanting to use his system or the FO is wrong for acquiring all the wrong talent.....either would be a valid argument....(I think we brought Pettine here BECAUSE of his success with this system, right?)

So today with this current roster.....he has to use the OLBs he has....and everyone is screaming he is miss using them.....so whats he to do???....how is Pettine screwing up the D?....should we switch to a 4-3 in the middle of a season?.....just trash the system because our guys aren't good enough to execute it?......

Still waiting to hear....Out of these 4 OLBs......right now, who covers and who rushes???.....

As for 4-3 OLBs, Kirksey was an OLB at college and is now ILB, I'm pretty sure he could do that job. Mingo would probably be quite effective. Robertson played there in his first year with the Browns. Dansby would be the Mike, sure, and we could use an extra backer or two, but it wouldn't be disastrous.

Shelton is the only concern I would have converting to a 4-3.

@wargograw said:

I think you're completely missing my point.....I am not complaining about Farmer......Im complaining about people complaining about Pettine miss using our OLB's.....when they all have exactly the same skills....and are being used like they were used last year too.....yet everyone acts as if we have completely switched up their responsibilities....and we haven't.....

Mingo, Kruger and Bryant were already here when Farmer took over.....Farmer has added Orchard and Solomon only......

Id say while Orchard WAS brought in to rush the passer, but he appears to be the most versatile LB of all of them....and since the others are so terrible at playing the run and coverage.....its seems like a no brainer for the coach to use Orchard in that role....

I do know Kruger is speaking out that he should be only a pass rusher......I hear a lot of screaming about Armonty covering, when he should be rushing the passer......and lots of "why isnt mingo rushing the passer?"......and now, Im hearing Orchard should be rushing..

So.....AGAIN......WHO SHOULD BE COVERING AND PLAYING THE RUN???.....and if we put Orchard in to rush, who drops into coverage?....

All these guys should be able to do multiple things....and they cant(its obvious).....so, if Orchard just rushes and Mingo just covers, wouldnt that make us pretty easy to figure out?.....yes it would....

Bottom line, We need versatile OLB's that play multiple roles and we dont have them......and that is not Pettines fault.....(which is my point)....

Aldon Smith??...we just disagree, so Im not debating it.......when he was available this spring, the Browns were in the middle of dealing with Johnny and his rehab, as well as waiting for JG's impending suspension.....I dont see any world where, at that moment, the Browns were gonna reach out and sign another problem guy(no matter how good he was)......just dont see it.....

@gftchris said:

Mud, those guys we drafted as pass rushers - Orchard, Mingo, Bryant (I think) - were all 4-3 DEs. As you know my football acumen isn't as high as others but I'm pretty sure that doesn't involve much in the way of dropping in to coverage. Pass rush and edge-set/run stuff, sure. We drafted Orchard who was a solid run defender and nation's leading pass rusher, and then drop him in to coverage?

I don't know the snap breakdown for him, but that seems like a waste of talent and trying to fit the players to the scheme, not the other way around. I'm more and more thinking we need to look at a 4-3 to get the most out of our edge rushers, but then where does that leave Shelton, a dedicated NT? Can he effectively play DT in a 4-3? I know Des Bryant can, he did it in Oakland, but what about Meder? Dylan Wynn looked decent in preseason as a guy who can play that position.

Orchard was a DE too....so make that all 4 OLB's are converted DE's.......and again(as stated 50 times already)....they were all drafted on the basis that they would be good pass rushers.....every one of them.....allllllllll of them....PASS RUSHERS ....

So...putting ANY of them into coverage goes against the original premise of why they are here......and since NONE of them are true OLB's, then SOMEONE has to cover......why is this so hard for people to get????.....and the only ones who can cover appear to be Orchard and Mingo....

So....I will ask the same question I have asked over and over and no one wants to answer....WHO COVERS IF NOT ORCHARD AND MINGO?

And, in truth, the Browns have started trying to mix it up with these LB's to see who can do what, because they are not getting it done. And the "mixing up" is seen by some as "miss-using" or changing what we did last year.....while I see it as a frustrated coaching staff making adjustments to try to get some production out of 4 LB's who arent playing well

4-3?.....would be fine, except they've been drafting and building to be a 3-4....so that pretty much would burn the Shelton pick...and even if we went to a 4-3, we still dont have OLB's, except maybe Orchard......

But we would have an over abundance of DE's, MLB's and DT's so we could rotate them till our heads were spinning.....

@wargograw said:

While credit must be given for players like Meder, he's not exactly a super start that's had a big bearing on our season. I'd rather he get a few first round picks right than a few UDFAs. For example, Gabriel was a decent find at WR, but we could have taken OBJ instead of Gilbert, and found as much contribution as Gilbert from a UDFA.

By the way, Jamie Meder: another Farmer accomplishment.

@wargograw said:

That's where Meder's been playing unless I'm mistaken, backing up Shelton.

I don't know the snap breakdown for him, but that seems like a waste of talent and trying to fit the players to the scheme, not the other way around. I'm more and more thinking we need to look at a 4-3 to get the most out of our edge rushers, but then where does that leave Shelton, a dedicated NT? Can he effectively play DT in a 4-3? I know Des Bryant can, he did it in Oakland, but what about Meder? Dylan Wynn looked decent in preseason as a guy who can play that position.

No, we have one drunk. Zero jerks as far as I know, unless you want to call the drunk that. More importantly though, as we've been discussing, we have no good OLBs. Smith is one. He played 8 or 9 games. I'd venture to guess if he started our first 8 or 9 games we'd have at least a couple more wins. He's THAT good and our guys are THAT bad. Furthermore, we'd get him back for our impending playoff push in the back half of next season. He was also, I'm assuming, cheap. Complete no brainer.

Then again, this is all assuming Pettine would actually play him, which we all know is speculative at best. Lol.

@gftchris said:

You and I have about the same perspective....

@wargograw said:

Mud, going into this year, Mingo was your coverage guy. So no, they're not all pass rushers. We had no pass rush last year (Kruger's luck sacks notwithstanding), so many thought we needed as pass rushing OLB. We got that in Orchard. Now Farmer is the scapegoat because too many of his backers are pass rushers? Ok...

All that said, let me once again bang the Aldon Smith drum.

Mingo was drafted as a pass rusher.....yes, we use him to cover and I have no issue there....BUT, many people have been complaining "because" we use him to cover and saying the coach is not using him right.........and the same with Armonty and Kruger and, now, Orchard....bitching because they have to cover.....so my point was "for those bitching about these guys covering, who IS supposed to cover???....and HOW is Pettine using these guys wrong when they are the only ones he has?????

And....yes,.....the sad part is we DID(or do) need an edge rusher.....even with these 4 "pass rushing specialists", we still have NO ONE who can get to the QB on his own......(and the complaint is that they are too busy covering to rush, apparently)....

Aldon Smith is suspended for year, so he's not helping anyone......And he may be a good player, but dont you think we have enough jerks(and drunks) on this team to last a lifetime???....sorry.....glad we passed.....

All that said, let me once again bang the Aldon Smith drum.

@canton-mike said:

Mack: injuries might be affecting that?

Thomas - penalties: he had 10 last season, 6 so far this, so he's on track for a better season penalty-wise

Hawkins: Not sure what's happened there, probably a change in OC did him in.

Gabriel: same. We're not getting the little guys open as much.

Crowell: no idea.

The above are all O players, and Pett has less to do with that than the D players, so it's quite possibly that the change in OC contributed as much as any thing else. Where Hawkins and Gabriel have gone down, from a combined 1,668 yards last year, Benjamin and Barnidge are already at almost 1,600 combined, so I'll call that at worst a push, and at best getting more out of them.

The others - Thomas, Mack & Crowell, and throw in Bitonio who has not been at the same level by all accounts - are all OL players, and Crowell whose game is a direct product of the OL. Speculation on my part, but I think this is down to a combination of a rookie OC, and *no* OL coach, after boozy-mcfeely got suspended at the start of the season.

Haden - injuries. He's barely played, it's a lost season for him, and they won't rush him back, but try to give more game time to the kids under the guise of a decent excuse, not tanking the season.

Kruger - is the only one that has genuinely and without good reason regressed. It could equally be that last year was his career year and he's gone from an up year to a down year, and is just a 5-6 sack guy, as he was in his first year here.

@tour2ma said:

yes....rush em all....and screw trying to cover any backs or TE's......

Maybe the 2 middle backers can do all that.....stop the run, fill the gaps, set the edge, cover all the RB's and TE's, protect the middle....

While Kruger and the rest just have to wrestle with some O linemen.......

The way I see it, the personnel we have isn't far off from what was used during his tenure in Seattle. I picture Orchard growing into a Leo spot quite well.

Is that what you are trying to say?

@richiswhere said:

That completely plays into the point Ive been TRYING to make throughout this entire thread.....Ill say it louder....

ALL 4 OF OUR OLBS WERE BROUGHT HERE JUST TO RUSH THE PASSER.....EVERY SINGLE ONE....

Mingo, pass rush specialist......Kruger, pass rush specialist.....Armonty, pass rush specialist,....and Orchard, pass rush specialist...

Now,,,, for all you guys saying Pettine is an idiot for "miss-using" these guys in coverage or playing the run......WHO is he SUPPOSED to use?????.....do we just rush everybody every play?????....cmon, think about it.....

This is on Farmer for bringing in 4 one dimensional players who ALL have the same ONE skill, while NOT having the other TWO skills required to be an OLB in the NFL.....

Pettine has no choice but to drop someone....almost every play,,,,,so who's it gonna be if you;re not gonna drop Mingo, Kruger, Armonty or Orchard?????

Maybe Ray Farmer can suit up and do it????