@miktoxic said:

woweee zowee. Two 2-8 teams. heh heh heh. The clowns and the tit ins...2 powerhouses of the nfl...heh heh heh..

@jiggins7919 said:

....as does the coaching staff......

@mudfly said:

Pass rushers are among the most coveted positions in football, so simply "adding" talent would be nice, but not exactly the easiest thing to do. We drafted Nate Orchard for that reason, and by no means would I label the guy a bust after 10 games, but he certainly isn't blowing anyone's doors off. The poor play of our DB's might have some to do with our lack of pressure, but that can't account for every bit of our ineptitude. The so called "coverage sacks" certainly aren't happening for us, but neither are any other kind. For example, there were several sacks by Pittsburgh that happened almost immediately. How many of THOSE do we get? Can nobody on our team beat their counterpart a few times a game and come up with a big play? Did Kruger lose all of his talent in one year?

I think just about everyone on the planet will agree that we need more talent, but I stand by my point about the scheme being deficient. This isn't just me saying this, just today on our radio show a caller brought up this point and the hosts of our show, including a former NFL LB, said that Rex Ryan, Rob Ryan, and Mike Pettine run similar defenses, and what do they have in common? Their defenses are terrible. Matt Wilhelm stated that in the NFL, like many things in life, will let you get away with things until the opposition catches up. He used the "read option" as an example, and you can probably throw in the "wild cat" as well. Schemes and philosophies will work until someone figures out how to best it, and then other teams will copy it. The NFL is a copycat league. Additionally, part of Pettine's scheme revolves around having corners play a bunch of press man coverage, and that style is somewhat nullified by the NFL's fondness of offense, and how the refs will officiate the game. That's why you see the pass interference calls, the defensive holdings...because our DB's know that they probably don't have help over the top, and if they give up the catch, it's going to go a long ways. So what do you do? You evolve. You adapt. You mold your game plan around the talent that you have, not the talent you wish you did, or what you had when you were healthy.

And back to your point about adding talent...we all WISH we had more talent, and what concerns a lot of fans is the fact that the guy we have in place tasked with finding this talent, hasn't exactly lit it up. His philosophy on how WR's aren't as valuable as other positions has certainly burned us. We missed out on the best WR class in recent memory, and then the next year we picked a guy in Mayle that was labeled by some draft niks as one of the worst picks in the entire draft. I'm not unrealistic, and Farmer has definitely found some diamonds in the rough, but he's missing on impact players, and that's what is really hurting us. But again, I have heard that it takes about 3 years to truly evaluate a draft, so using that mantra, perhaps it's too early to completely judge Farmer. Wouldn't it be great if we knew for a fact that our first rounders would work out? But we don't, and with Justin Gilbert being a healthy scratch at the #8 position, would you want to trust a super high pick to Farmer again? Is it fair to judge a GM after one perceived bust?

What really concerns the Browns fans I speak with is the direction our team is heading. It'd be one thing if we're losing close games, or our injuries are making one aspect of the game stick out, or we're making some kind of progress but can't get over the hump. But we've lost 13-15, and as you said, it's not just one thing. Terrible penalties, giving up huge runs, not getting off the field on 3rd down, getting burned by the deep ball, awful red zone offense, no running game, no pass rush, etc. We are in deep trouble as a franchise, and I don't think it's as easy as adding more talent. But obviously nobody knows. If you feel that the scheme is fine, that is your opinion and I respect that. But I think it's flawed, and it certainly isn't just me. Our radio hosts, our players, and some of the fans that called in all feel the same way. Our defensive coordinator stated in an interview that they will try to simplify some things over the bye week, who knows, maybe that'll help the team play faster. But we can't really change the talent we have right now. We have to play the hand that we're dealt.

@jiggins7919 said:

The NFL is all about making adjustments. So if our talent was adequate two years ago, just what has changed? Is it that other teams are now emulating the teams that had success against us, and now we are struggling to combat that? While not stellar, it seemed that our pass rush was better last year, so why did that change? Yes, we've had injuries, but that happens to most teams every year. So is it Farmer's responsibility to have the team better stocked, or is it Pettine's fault for not preparing them better?

There is something wrong with our scheme, especially against the run. It's been talked about on several articles, as our players have said things like "we aren't sure what to do", and "imagine trying to define mud." Our players aren't always sure what gap to attack, and when there is indecision, the players aren't attacking as quickly as they should be. I see your point about the injuries to our pass defense. Losing Haden, Whitner, Williams, and Gipson is a lot for any team to shoulder, but why is the run defense STILL so awful? If it was awful last year, worse this year, and our players are about the same...is it just because we lack talent, or is there a way to schematically make it better? For example, Pettine was groomed by Rex Ryan. Ryan has about the most expensive defensive line in the league, and it's full of talent, yet they give up 24 points a game. I understand that the DL is one component of a defense, but Rex runs a similar system, and they're giving up a bunch of points. So isn't that proof that maybe it's time to make SOME kind of philosophical change on defense?

You can't blame the coach for injuries, that's just ridiculous. What really worries me is that the defense is seriously flawed, but nobody really seems to know WHY. Pettine himself has said he's scratching his head in regard to the chunk plays and the poor play. There really isn't one thing you can point to and say, "AHA! This is the problem we must fix!" The players are confused and unsure of assignments. They have said they don't feel like they are put into position to succeed. I believe on any losing team there will be some degree of bellyaching, and it's much easier to blame the coach than to look in the mirror and say "It's my fault."

I'm not saying we need to reinvent the wheel or anything, but the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Maybe you're right...maybe it IS a severe talent deficiency, but the NFL, more than any other professional sport, promotes parity. Our talent simply can't be that far off.

@jiggins7919 said:

So your point is what???......that we shouldnt blitz or rush the QB, maybe just stop that stuff all together?......BRILLIANT

In your words....we have the same players & same system that we had success with last year.....YET, when they dont play well, the obvious answer is scrap the system?.....didnt you just get done saying it worked last year?......

Last year we had the #1 pass defense in the league.....and only 8 games later you all say scrap the system....fire be the coach....yada yada yada....

Think about this.....we also had 3 out 4 DB's in the pro-bowl, right?......Remember our pro-bowl safety, the one who led the league in interceptions?....he blew out a knee and has not returned to form....PLUS, he's missed a bunch of games with new injuries......Remember our pro-bowl CB Joe Haden.....mr lock down....he's missed almost the entire season with injuries and has played VERY poorly when in.......Donte Whitner also has played injured and missed games....as well as Jordon Poyer, who is SUPPOSED to be backing these guys up......

so when you take 3 Pro bowlers out of the equation, does it make sense to blame the poor play on the COACH??? ...or his system???

And, I will add, that the #1 pass defense(which we had last year) REALLY adds to our ability to rush the passer. If no one is open, then the QB holds the ball a bit longer, which allows our average pass rush guys to get to the QB.....BUT, if the pass defense breaks down, then any decent QB is gonna get the ball out faster.....completing more passes, while diminishing the pass rush and number of sacks....

Plus, when you have the best group of DB's in league, but your team is one of the worst at stopping the run.....do you sent your extra help to the DB's or do you load up to stop the run?......cause we cant do both....

So, with all this in mind....isnt it POSSIBLE.....that the poor play of Joe Haden and Tashau Gipson, coupled with the extensive DB injury list, has MORE to do with the defensive breakdowns, than the coaching or the system?......because THAT is what has changed from last year...the personnel and their individual performances....(not the scheme or approach)

And what about Kruger, Mingo and the rest of the guys crying because they are being used differently or asked to cover?......to me, different means "adjustments".....So, I ask you AGAIN....is it possible we are asking people to cover(who usually dont), as a way to get help to where it's needed?.....isnt switching guys around, a way to "try" to stop the bleeding or adjust to cover the weaknesses??.......and if that is so, why say they aren;t making adjustments when they OBVIOUSLY are????

I think if our DB's were up to snuff (ala last year), we'd be seeing MUCH better defense.....and a MUCH better pass rush....and the "scheme" wouldnt even be in the discussion.....

The team needs better talent....more versatile talent.....and better execution....Without those 3 things, you can scheme till the cows come home and it wont make any difference.....zip nada none...

@jiggins7919 said:

There's a big part of me that says "no matter what, Pettine and Farmer need a third year", as we've tried switching staff every year or two, and where has that gotten us? Perhaps they do need time to hone their craft, iron out the wrinkles, and work out the problems that have surfaced. We've been miserable for the better part of 17 years, what's another year of failure?

But...I'd be lying if I said that another year of these two didn't terrify me as well. Mainly because of the DIRECTION we are going. In my eyes, the Browns were a team that might usually lose, but you knew they'd come to play and it would probably be a close game. Now, we're just getting our ass whipped, and the scores aren't close anymore. Could we be doing the franchise a disservice by keeping everyone around for another year?

What really hurts is the fact we thought we were close last year. Hell, we were 7-4 and SOARING higher than we ever had. The wheels came off, we got zip from the QB position, and many people felt that we were a QB away from being competitive. All offseason, we heard about how we're going to stop the run, run the ball ourselves, "minimize the qb position", and play tough football. We constantly heard about our "elite OL", and our "elite secondary". What the hell happened?! Our secondary has been banged up, sure, but we've given up about 21 td's, and only picked off 6 passes! Not only can we not stop the run (aside from last week), but we can't get a run off before our back gets drilled 3 yards in the damn backfield.

Check the 1st 3 or 4 years when noll took over the stealers. His wins were pretty scarce then. Is it the same thing? wish I knew that but I do know that there is only one way to find out.

But...I'd be lying if I said that another year of these two didn't terrify me as well. Mainly because of the DIRECTION we are going. In my eyes, the Browns were a team that might usually lose, but you knew they'd come to play and it would probably be a close game. Now, we're just getting our ass whipped, and the scores aren't close anymore. Could we be doing the franchise a disservice by keeping everyone around for another year?

What really hurts is the fact we thought we were close last year. Hell, we were 7-4 and SOARING higher than we ever had. The wheels came off, we got zip from the QB position, and many people felt that we were a QB away from being competitive. All offseason, we heard about how we're going to stop the run, run the ball ourselves, "minimize the qb position", and play tough football. We constantly heard about our "elite OL", and our "elite secondary". What the hell happened?! Our secondary has been banged up, sure, but we've given up about 21 td's, and only picked off 6 passes! Not only can we not stop the run (aside from last week), but we can't get a run off before our back gets drilled 3 yards in the damn backfield.

@texasag1969 said:

Yeah he did, which is uncharacteristic of his play. His accuracy is generally awesome, but he missed Delanie Walker on a stop and go move that would've been huge. You don't get many opportunities in the NFL for big plays, and when they present themselves, you have to cash in or you lose.

The most alarming part of all this failure, is the direction our team is going. We used to lose somewhat close games, and now we're just getting our collective asses whipped. Blowouts are not the norm in the NFL. You see a few each week, but seldom do you see one team get their ass handed to them on a platter multiple weeks in a row.

NFL Insider Adam Caplan was on our radio show yesterday, and he was asked about Pettine's future. He said he's definitely on the hot seat, and "something has to change". He didn't give specific details, but he said that it's obvious something has to change due to how poorly the defense is playing. He didn't have any answers as to why we are so bad against the run, and he wasn't a fan of using DL to cover people. He talked about the "Rex Ryan Tree", and how nobody from that group is having a whole lot of defensive success. It was a very informative interview, and I recommend it. He didn't slam our Browns, but he didn't sugarcoat it either.

@miktoxic said:

and he missed some wide open long passes when he did have time to look.

@richiswhere said:

and they're 2-8. so i guess they shoulda drafted some OL along the way huh? cuz mariota didn't have time to scratch his balls let alone throw any tonite......dumbass.

4 1st round picks and none of them are impact players

They said they wanted to build through the draft

Farmer's drafts have been AWEFUL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

@canton-dawg said:

Williams no name DB's are taught & know how to whack & cover too. Williams did his job to get all 4 also. Shelton & Dez Bryant is a start. We yuck it up to stumble on a Bosa & a OLB our DB's may not have to cover to long at all. When the problem for 2 seasons has been we can't stop the run, Williams answer has always been Were going 4 up front & were coming after you. I welcome that change.

@gumby73 said:

Get Gregg Williams the DC out of St. Louis Rams before they move west. I am so tired of watching his D whack people like they did us. If he gets the right people in the right places he has HC potential. His price cant be bad & knows how to build a Defensive Front that beats the man in front of you.

Having 4 first round draft picks on the DL helps too.

@the-gipper said:

Dick LeBeau.......at 77 years old he would be better than the pile of shit we have running the defense.

@mudfly said:

The Armonty play(which Im already sick of hearing about) is an example of folks picking one play and using it over and over again to try to make some kind of a point about the scheme, when it was really just an opposing team exposing the mismatch(that exists on almost every play, if you know where to look)

It sure does. I was watching the Raiders/Steelers game and during the replay of an Amari Cooper TD, the guy in coverage? None other than Mr Facemask himself, LB Arthur Moats. I can also recall Cleveland LB Scott Fujita unsuccessfully trying to to cover RB Reggie Bush. The mismatches happen frequently, the only time it gets brought to the forefront is when a big play is involved. Good post Mud.

@texasag1969 said:

I watched PG's video of Gordon's highlights- and it about made me ill. In the Red Zone, with Smurfs, you're taking away jump balls to the corner out of the game plan.

@opal312 said:

We keep missing on draft picks while teams drafting behind are having more success. Why was Gilbert inactive and a 6th round pick playing at Pittsburgh?

Farmer needs to draft better.

Or Pettine needs to activate better.