@vagitron said:

The Steelers could have him tomorrow, the Browns would dump Joe and that salary in a heartbeat

@mudfly said:

Well, I agree that it is highly unfair to assess the value of some of these players due to the poor coaching they receive.

If we can get some good coaching......some real professional coaching and some real professional talent evaluators, and a number of these guys don't perform....then so be it. At least then, hopefully, we would really know.

@the-gipper said:

They'd look better if they played better.....

Just wait till we get a new coach, then you all will see that some of these guys just suck at their jobs......

@baconhound said:

A lot of their players would look better if they were better coached.

@dawg08 said:

CLEVEFAN4LIFE LOVES PETTINE

@clevfan4life said:

Are you serious?? I understand the consistency this team needs with coaching, BUT Pettine is a joke of a coach. Tonight's coaching snafu's weren't his first or even his 2nd. This is his 2nd year and the guy still has no clue what he is doing!

@baconhound said:

Again Cleveland has maybe 6 players that other teams would want as a starter Benjamin, Barnidge, Schwartz, Thomas, Mack and Lee.

I'd still take Haden.

@mudfly said:

If Mud and I agree it must be true but this is exactly what needs to be said. If we get the right talent and still can't win, see Detroit, then fire the coach

@the-gipper said:

Again Cleveland has maybe 6 players that other teams would want as a starter Benjamin, Barnidge, Schwartz, Thomas, Mack and Lee.

@medicineman said:

agreed, but we regressed in a big time way...from game 12 last yr to present day. We lose tonight, we lose the rest of the games, bank on it..even frisco will kick our ass. So it that is the case, we go 2-14, yeah, there better be some changes made because after yr 2 we are going backwards man...

@medicineman said:

You can improve in two years, not regress.

I don't know why the common belief is that failure = firesale. The odds that Pettine, and O'Neil, and Flip, and Farmer and all of our players are shit are astronomical. There are plenty of teams that have lost a head coach without losing a GM, or a coordinator without losing the HC. Just because one guy goes doesn't mean you scrap it all and start over.

@mudfly said:

The only thing that makes great players great is success - and that is largely due to utilization and supporting cast.

There's no talent differential between Edelman/Amendola and Benjamin/Hawkins. Same measurables, same strengths, same weaknesses. But one group has a great coach utilizing their talents effectively and a great QB able to anticipate when they will be open and deliver them the ball in space.

On paper, our team is just as talented as at least half of the league, yet we are incorrectly utilizing our players (Sheard, Mingo, Crowell), underutilizing them (Duke, kind of Hartline) or not using them at all (Bowe, GIlbert). The only talent we're really seriously missing is a three-down OLB and/or stud ILB.

The only person to blame is Pettine. Farmer gave him a team of talented players, Pettine has found a way to fuck it up. I'm sure Arians, Quinn, Harbaugh, Ryan, Rivera, Fox, Pagano, Lewis, Reid, Zimmer, Belichick, Coughlin, Kelly, Carroll, Smith and Bowles could manage more than two wins with our roster.

Look at New England last night - Amendola out, Lewis out, Edelman out, Gronk injured late... and they still probably should have won that game. Are New England's fourth string WR's really just head and shoulders more talented than our starters, or is it more likely that Belichick and Brady know how to use the talent they have?

@mudfly said:

At this point.....if O'Neil would go, I would like to see what happens going forward from there.

And the other thing I would change is for Ray Farmer to not be such a stubborn ass about the WR position. Get a good one high in the draft.

@jiggins7919 said:

Well,,,,,it's above my pay scale too......Im just saying that I dont believe Farmer, Pettine & Oneill are all incompetent....

But just firing everybody again would show me that Haslem IS incompetent and has no clue whats wrong with the team or how to hire the right people.....

My experience has always been that you can only win with talent....lots of talent......Ive never seen a great coach win it all without great players.....and, right now, we dont have any great players....

so, before switching coaches, Id at least wait to see what this one could do with the proper talent in place(and healthy).....

@baconhound said:

That's a joke right. 44-19-1

He's one of the guys that probably doesn't belong in a football discussion. Fires off what he thinks is true and then puts all the cards in that basket. when proven wrong it's deny, deny, deny. Go check out the political board. Harbaugh had a tough final season in SF and took all the blame. Kaep isn't very good. He lost a all pro middle linebacker to retirement and then lost Borland because of the concussion concern. Add in the Michigan job opening and the cards were on the table.

@mudfly said:

I think you're correct about a lot of things, but the difficult part of the equation is figuring out exactly what is wrong. Me and you have discussed this at great length, and the consensus is basically we need an infusion of talent...at a lot of different positions. We've been blown out in four straight games, which is a rarity in the NFL. Is talent alone enough to get us back to progressing, or is there an issue with our overall scheme? Is there something fundamentally wrong with how we go about our business? Honestly, that's above my pay grade. It's safe to say we need more talent, but I'm worried about our inability to make any corrective actions during the course of the season. If plans aren't working out, I would think a good coach might be able to figure out some methods to create some success.

In Pettine's defense, it doesn't help that our secondary has been decimated by injuries, and the secondary has been victimized extensively during our blowout streak. How much of it is his fault? How many other teams can thrive when they lose their probowl DB's? Is it on Farmer's shoulders to provide the coach with better backups? Nobody is really going to have the answer, and as a fan, this is all too familiar, and way too frustrating.

I've never gone on record and said "Fire Pettine!" I have suggested that maybe a new defensive coordinator could be the answer, but that doesn't seem likely, as Pettine and O'Neil go back a long way. We definitely need more talent, but we also have to play better too. We can't drop touchdowns, we can't have penalties on the one yard line, and we can't have other penalties that keep opponent's drives alive. The penalties aren't really on the coaches. That's on the players. I'm not sure firing Pettine would help, but at the same time, are we doing more damage by keeping potentially the wrong guy? I wish I knew.

@baconhound said:

The Browns are awful......mainly because they are coached terribly. So you are right.

I see where maybe they have at most 3-4 spots that could/should be filled/upgraded. (not counting injury)

@vagitron said:

No, you are right....it doesn't matter what the fans want....and the Rooney's certainly would not fire him....

....but my point simply is.....the Fans there WOULD be calling for his firing....even though it would count for nothing....it would still happen.

@the-gipper said:

Cause your high. The Browns are awful.

@westside-steve said:

That's a joke right. 44-19-1

@baconhound said:

Never said he was. That would be the only coach I'd want at this point in time other than Mike Pettine. Even if the hoodie wanted to be in Cleveland, no thanks unless it was a GM.

He is in Michigan because he sucked in the pros.

WSS

Now......less than a year later, the team is doing worse......or has regressed.......and everyone wants him out....

So....the criteria has become that he should be fired BECAUSE the team has gotten worse?......

If thats the case....then more than 1/2 the coaches in the league should be fired immediately.....(17 teams currently have worse records than last season)......(I guess the ravens should fire Ozzie AND Harbaugh, considering they didnt get better and actually have destroyed a playoff team)

So far its been fire Pettine cause the team is regressing.....or fire Oneill because the D sucks.....or fire Farmer cause the talent sucks.....

How about actually figuring out the problem and making a move to correct it, rather than wiping the whole slate clean just to make sure we've eliminated the cause?.......

Knee jerk decisions have killed this team....and if we go and fire em all again?.....then it shall continue.....

what do they say about History repeating itself???

@the-gipper said:

That can happen in every market. And you don't have to have a rough start. Kelly was 10-6 and 10-6 in his first year, and now after giving up 45 points in consecutive games, the entire city wants him gone.

How long did Whisenhunt last in Tenn. I think they hired him the same time the Browns hired Pettine.

And McCoy in SD.....again, I think hired same year as Pettine....and he may be gone.

And the only thing that reprieved Joe Philbin in Miami for a while was that he....or was it his wife....had cancer.

They basically fired John Fox in Denver after having gone to the playoffs like every year there. Who would want to possibly go to a situation like that?

So....it is stupid to conclude that no one would come here because they may get fired if they don't succeed.

Every single fucking coach in the NFL is susceptible of being fired if they do not succeed.

Two losing seasons in a row in Pittsburgh and they would probably start calling for Tomlin's head.

Does it matter what the fans want? The Rooney's certainly wouldn't be looking to fire him unless they were seeing a dramatic regression. Fans in certain circles have been calling for his firing for the team going 8-8 a couple seasons in a row and missing the playoffs. Fan opinion should count for zero when making personel decisions.