@westside-steve said:

You would think so......

And....going one further.....a guy who doesnt want to win probably doesnt have the highest paid D in the league either.....or a 9 million dollar receiver on the inactive list.......

WSS

@mudfly said:

Well done! Your points about coaching and effort are excellent - but I question if he wants the commitment of at least 60 hours a week that seems to go with being an Offensive Coordinator. That's why I chose to mention how many well paid HOF QBs wanted to retire as a player into twice as many hours immediately thereafter.

I think he's a born competitor that would thrive in a front office especially for a very close personal friend like Jimmy. At least if he's a front office guy - he's been around Pro Football since he was wetting his last diaper through his dad. He knew what team to hand select coming off injury and he's witnessed to what it takes to win consistently from successful front offices in Indy and Denver.

Ozzie Newsome cracked in as a coach in Cleveland before he found a much more suitable position for himself in the front office.

@the-gipper said:

That was maybe the only time in Richardson's pro career he actually SAW an opening and ran through it. His "run to darkness" posited by Marshall Faulk is well documented.

@babernakle said:

I've said before- it doesn't freaking matter if the stadium is empty or not. The BIG cash cow for the NFL is television revenue. Haslam will be upset over an empty stadium though. It will be interesting to see how many empty seats posing as fans will be on view come Monday night.

@stinkhole said:

VesnaKociper said:

No, drafting Brady Quinn, Brandon Weeden, Trent Richardson, Braylon Edwards, K2, Johnny Manziel, Brian Robiskie, Mohammed Massaquoi....to a lesser extent Colt McCoy, Charlie Frye, Quncy Morgan etc.

They drafted Joe Thomas to protect Brady Quinn....

Why would you bitch about the JT draft......but not bitch about the drafting of those dozen offensive skill players.

See.....the problem Ghoolie is that the Browns DID follow YOUR advice. They drafted all these offensive skill players very, very high.....and they have all fucking sucked.

......and since we can show that the Browns followed your advice......we can then conclude that all the fucked up picks they have made have been your fault. They do what you ask and they fuck it up. You fucked it up.

Why are you such a fuckup.. I blame you for Quinn, Weeden, Johnny, Trent. etc etc .

Its all your fault dude!

@wargograw said:

Agree.....he seems to contend that the Browns make money by losing.....and that ergo, they would make less money by winning.

And that is a falsity.

And the team doesn't need Johnny to sell tickets. All the tickets are sold anyway.

He could go into politics.....business for himself..... be hired by any kind of company etc....or coach.....

But I dont really see him settling for "announcer" or TV personality....except maybe for a year or so, while he seeks his next real opportunity...simply because I think it would be less than challenging or satisfying to a guy like Manning......

On the coaching side, he does have his own QB camp which is pretty successful....our guy Johnny was there(and got thrown out)....so, he does have a foot in the coaching door.....and though some folks think he "wouldnt want to work that hard", I would disagree and say he is exactly the type of guy who WOULD want to work that hard and probably will have a very successful second career(as opposed to a fluff job)......

So.....dont know what he will choose.....but he will definitely have many options and, its my guess that he will choose something that will challenge him and offer rewards beyond $$$.....

@kvoethe said:

If you look at all the HOF QBs since the 70s, not very many wanted to spend 60-70 hours a week working as a Coordinator 1 year after retiring. There's a backup QB like Gary Kubiak that's done well while Jim Harbaugh had some success out in SF

Elway, after making some terrible investments in laundry mats, felt compelled to go after a front office position. At least in that position, he can empower an entire scouting dept/staff to influence him and his HC into some well informed decisions. Not only that, but he also had ties all over the league. My guess is a front office is more apt to be the next Peyton's Place. But I've been wrong before...

@forevercleveland said:

It is my belief that Jimmy Haslam does not want the Browns to win. Yes, I realize how stupid this sounds but I will lay out a few points to support my theory.

I will try not to get too personal...mistakes may occur

The Browns profit from losing, The Browns have one of the most successful business models today. They can lose year after year and still make a profit. According to Forbes as of September 2015 the Browns are worth 1.5 Billion Dollars, and Haslam bought the team for $987 million dollars in 2012. The Browns worth grew by 513 million dollars in only three years with a current record of 18-40. The Browns have one of the most loyal fan bases in the NFL. This is great for Haslam because no matter how bad the Browns perform, he will get his money regardless. Also his marketing team finds new ways to draw back fans to a losing team. Those new uniforms seam like a thing of the past and the season isn't over yet

***Correction*** the season for the Browns is over, but they are required to still attend the next six games.

Manziel was drafted to sell tickets, plain and simple. "Johnny Football" was one the most successful college brands in college history. People were drawn in to see him play and it was a marketing success for him and Texas A&M. He blew up on social media and throughout the sports world. Haslam realized the potential to sell tickets and give the fans hope for a franchise quarterback after the swift firing of Rob Chudzinski and media bashing of Browns management. Season Ticket sales went through the roof after Johnny was drafted by the Browns, Success for Haslam.

Manziel Was setup to fail. Many of his flaws were pointed out and exposed by multiple football analysts. His partying habits were well known and documented, yet the Browns still chose to draft him and place him in a offense that doesn't cater to his strengths. They also signed Josh McCown who is at the tail end of his career and possibly could be forced to retire due to age/injury or a possible poor performance. Although Josh has played decently as a starter he was not a long term option and neither is Johnny. We are right on track to begin the two year cycle again. After a video surfaces on instagram, which does not show Johnny consuming alcohol the Browns bench him and place him as a 3rd string. Effectively they have destroyed any chance of getting a decent trade trade for him at the end of the season.

The Two Year Cycle, we have replaced a coach every 2.3 years on average since the browns returned to Cleveland, The most successful teams in the NFL generally have a coach four or more years..This two year cycle for the browns involves the following

-New Quarterback

-New Running back

-New Coach

-New Defensive Scheme

-New Offensive Scheme

Haslam has continued this cycle with the exception of Rob Chudzinski. I do believe that Mike Pettine will be fired or demoted at the end of the year regardless of what Jimmy says. On the other hand he could get another shot if Jimmy wants to save face and stick to his word....for once.

Same Old Browns, Wasted draft picks, bad coaching, bad free agency moves, just bad everything. Being this consistently bad reeks of a plan to fail. The book written by Terry Pluto named "False Start: How the New Browns Were Set Up to Fail" had listed basically everything wrong with the Browns. The book was written in 2004, and eleven years later the same things are being done again and again.

The fans suffer, not the team. I constantly hear about these poor players, or "How could anyone stand playing for the Browns?"...MONEY THAT'S WHY!. What if i told you, you will receive a 2 year, $12.5 million contract, with $9 million guaranteed to play (Dwayne Bowe). Even with the highest taxes that is about 3.5 million a year. Let's also say you will be paid that money whether or not you perform well. Most players are going to take that money and not care whether they win or lose because at the end of the day they still got paid. It can been seen multiple times throughout the games where players are laughing while losing. Once again the fans are suffering the most. We are essentially paying to watch a team lose in the worst possible fashion ever single year, and for some reason we keep on paying.

Draft Picks, Our last 8 draft picks, have had little to no impact on the team. Danny Shelton and Cameron Evring still need time to develop, but most likely won't under the Regime.

2012

3

Trent Richardson

RB

Alabama

22

Brandon Weeden

QB

Oklahoma State

2013

6

Barkevious Mingo

OLB

Louisiana State

2014

8

Justin Gilbert

CB

Oklahoma State

22

Johnny Manziel

QB

Texas A&M

2015

12

Danny Shelton

DT

Washington

19

Cameron Erving

To summarize what I've said, read below

Owner = Manufacturing Hope, Making more money

GM = Collecting a Check

Coaches = Collecting a Check

Players = Collecting a Check

Cheerleaders = Coming 2016, The next Browns Marketing to the fans

Fans = Will be ripped off, let down, left in the cold, and will return to pay for more of The Factory of Sadness

Fuck this im depressed now, OH WAIT THE CAVS PLAY TONIGHT!

Happiness restored

What do the Browns and Cavaliers have in common? They both lose every seven days

@flugel said:

That's a really good post Mark.However, the truth is it was a it was reported there was a record spike in season ticket sales over a 24-48 hour period since the time his name was announced as our first round selection.

Jimmy Haslam is as big of a football fan as it gets if anyone has ever understood who's personal plane intercepted the Manning family tradition at Ole Miss. There's been quite a few UT homecoming games since where Peyton has been seen sitting next to Jimmy, who remains the biggest football booster that program has.

Jimmy was just a wide eyed rookie owner in a majority control sense so he did what rookies often do - learn the hard way. I don't think he's really pumped about paying a guy like Bowe 9 million $ as much as he realized this was a major growing pain he needs to learn from as an owner when the knuckleheads in his bi-partison decision-making braintrust are treating such a responsibility like the marriage in the movie "The War of the Roses."

If Pilot didn't already show him this - he needs to learn customer satisfaction doesn't coincide with the shady Management group he is empowering. I don't know how he is going to do this but he better get some better hiring criteria really soon.

Hence my prediction of Peyton as OC for the Browns.

@mark-o said:

That's a really good post Mark.However, the truth is it was a it was reported there was a record spike in season ticket sales over a 24-48 hour period since the time his name was announced as our first round selection.

Jimmy Haslam is as big of a football fan as it gets if anyone has ever understood who's personal plane intercepted the Manning family tradition at Ole Miss. There's been quite a few UT homecoming games since where Peyton has been seen sitting next to Jimmy, who remains the biggest football booster that program has.

Jimmy was just a wide eyed rookie owner in a majority control sense so he did what rookies often do - learn the hard way. I don't think he's really pumped about paying a guy like Bowe 9 million $ as much as he realized this was a major growing pain he needs to learn from as an owner when the knuckleheads in his bi-partison decision-making braintrust are treating such a responsibility like the marriage in the movie "The War of the Roses."

If Pilot didn't already show him this - he needs to learn customer satisfaction doesn't coincide with the shady Management group he is empowering. I don't know how he is going to do this but he better get some better hiring criteria really soon.

who understand that more success comes from a player's heart,

and love for the game...

than "better stats" on paper. Not drafting an outstanding, tough, love the game wr

who runs a 4.3.... that rarely ever drops a pass, is 6'3"... or so....really smart..

because on paper he didn't play at a big school against big competition.

Head coaches who really know this, had far better opportunities than a long struggling

Browns team that hasn't drafted well, and was behind the eight ball after a very tough

restart in '99.

You listen to older players - Kosar, Sipe, Dixon, Golic, Dieken, Newsome.....etc etc etc...they ***LOVED*** the game.

They CARED ABOUT WINNING like there was no tomorrow if they didn't.

Josh Gordon? no fire. no love for the game. The Browns drafted wr in the 4th? round, that couldn't even

make the practice squad.

Seriously?

Sipe said in an interview, that the Kardiac Kids, when they had to win the game, they

just knew they were going all out and make it happen.

McCown has more intensity at qb IN ONE GAME... that Goofy Quinn, Anderson, Weeden, etc. ever did their

entire careers.

Kosar played a couple quarters on a fractured ankle. Mike Baab, back in the day, played an entire game

with a sprained knee I think it was.

They freaking LOVE the game. They are INTENSE about it. When the Browns got into the playoffs,

Ozzie Newsome said he played nine years to get there.

Just seems that that is the difference today. The NFL is a seriously intense game. A lot of players could play

just fine in college - they were very athletic. But when it comes to the pros... everybody was a star in college.

If you don't have that serious intensity, you can't fake it well in the NFL.

The Browns have lucked their way into having more talent than ever before.

Guys like Joe Thomas, Haden, Bitonio, Shelton, Duke Johnson, Swartz, ...it's a long list these days. But there are a few major weaknesses

that still haunt the Browns.

The right coaching staff, for one. And the wr's. The bigger wr Bowe hasn't taken the field much this entire season.

Still with coaches who don't really know how to coach and design a winning program... and some players, even still,

that have no fire.

The players deserve a lot better coaching staff than they have. Seems that the offense is fine with their coaches.

I don't think Flip is the guy who wants to run the ball all the time on first down...

and special teams.

Pettine, Oneil and his "works great on paper" defense need to GO. So close, yet so far away.

The Browns are still close enough, that just two or three more starters with the desire to win as much

as the fans, and as much love for the game as all those old guard players, and just like the guys

who do love the game want to win now.

Next will come locker room attitude adjustments. You won't be seeing partying go on after a loss. Everybody cries out that the culture needs to change. It's happening in a visible manner now and you'd think that they're commiting some kind of crime. You want change? Deal with it!

Happy Thanksgiving Browns fans!

@stinkhole said:

Richardson was an easy pick to make, and pretty much every GM would have made the pick in the browns' position.

Shelton was similar, although for most people it could have been him or Davonte Parker, as a big WR that we were lacking. He is yet to crack 50 yards on the entire season, btw.

Erving, everybody knows was an insurance against Mack's once-inevitable-but-now-cloudy-looking departure at the end of this year. Either way, with Erving we have legitimate cover for our OL if nothing else, and protection should Mack walk, or Schwartz who is out of contract this year. Not a sexy pick but not wasted.

Mark O, on 25 Nov 2015 - 8:27 PM, said:

First....every team/owner makes money. The TV money that each team gets before the season even starts guarantees that. If an NFL owner says he isn't making any money, he'd also try to sell you ocean front property in Arizona.

Model would have disagreed with that statement, hence we're playing the "real Browns" this weekend.

Second I agree with everything ForeverCleveland posted. Haslam is an idiot. His first rounders for the most part have sucked or are not being used correctly. BUT LET'S GO BACK TO 1999.

Tim Couch - Thrown in too early. Shell Shocked.

Courtney Brown - Injured by penalty flag

Gerard Warren - Cast off after injury only to play 7 more years

William Greene- Drug addict and alcolholic.

Jeff Faine Played a couple of years

Kellen Winslow II - Off field motorcycle injury. MORON

Braylon Edwards - Legal problems

Kamerion Wimberley - Rookie of the year then hell in a handbasket Coordinator?

Joe Thomas - Wow that's one right. It is about time for him to leave so he can get on a real team.

Brady Quinn- Major Putz. Didn't you feel so sorry for him while his draft status dropped to 22? PUTZ

no pick in 2008. Ok

Alex Mack - That's 2 right

Joe Haden - Holy shit!

Phil Taylor - What happened with him?

Trent Richardson - Attitude?

Brandon Weeden ​- Good what possessed them? No talent hack.

Barkevious Mingo - Watched him in college. He is a gazelle and he sure is not being used correctly.Turn him loose.

Justin Gilbert - Needs a good solid rap with a 2 x 4.

Johnny Football - That fat bastard Pettine has absolutely no clue on how to use him.

Danny Shelton and Cameron Irving. WTF?

It looks like we've had a serious string of dumb ass morons in the front office and we certainly have one on the sideline. They better get their shit together or I will have to look at them like I looked at the Indians. 1972 trade Graig Nettles. Why would you do that. 1974 Trade Chris Chambless. Both to the Yankees, in your division at the time and that was the core of their 1977 and 1978 Series Championships.

1979 Trade for Thurman Munson and he is killed traveling to Cleveland.

One more thing. How many teams can boast if you enter a 2 word search you have 2 humiliating playoff defeats come up. The Drive and The Fumble.

Yes, I'm proud to say that I am a browns fan.

Both Courtney Brown and Orlando Brown were injured by penalty flags?

Its easy to criticize the Shelton/Irving picks now, but you have to remember that everyone and their brother, from the experts down to the average fan, loved the browns draft. Recall the browns received an A or A+ grade.

Trent Richardson was highly touted, and according to the experts was gonna be the second coming of Jim Brown. Projected to go very high. I recall browns radio personalities and fans calling for Richardson to be drafted. Oh happy day in Cleveland when it happened.

VesnaKociper said:

Yes and Adrian Peterson has how many rings?.. unhuh...

@mark-o said:

.

First....every team/owner makes money. The TV money that each team gets before the season even starts guarantees that. If an NFL owner says he isn't making any money, he'd also try to sell you ocean front property in Arizona.

Model would have disagreed with that statement, hence we're playing the "real Browns" this weekend.

Second I agree with everything ForeverCleveland posted. Haslam is an idiot. His first rounders for the most part have sucked or are not being used correctly. BUT LET'S GO BACK TO 1999.

Tim Couch - Thrown in too early. Shell Shocked.

Courtney Brown - Injured by penalty flag

Gerard Warren - Cast off after injury only to play 7 more years

William Greene- Drug addict and alcolholic.

Jeff Faine Played a couple of years

Kellen Winslow II - Off field motorcycle injury. MORON

Braylon Edwards - Legal problems

Kamerion Wimberley - Rookie of the year then hell in a handbasket Coordinator?

Joe Thomas - Wow that's one right. It is about time for him to leave so he can get on a real team.

Brady Quinn- Major Putz. Didn't you feel so sorry for him while his draft status dropped to 22? PUTZ

no pick in 2008. Ok

Alex Mack - That's 2 right

Joe Haden - Holy shit!

Phil Taylor - What happened with him?

Trent Richardson - Attitude?

Brandon Weeden ​- Good what possessed them? No talent hack.

Barkevious Mingo - Watched him in college. He is a gazelle and he sure is not being used correctly.Turn him loose.

Justin Gilbert - Needs a good solid rap with a 2 x 4.

Johnny Football - That fat bastard Pettine has absolutely no clue on how to use him.

Danny Shelton and Cameron Irving. WTF?

It looks like we've had a serious string of dumb ass morons in the front office and we certainly have one on the sideline. They better get their shit together or I will have to look at them like I looked at the Indians. 1972 trade Graig Nettles. Why would you do that. 1974 Trade Chris Chambless. Both to the Yankees, in your division at the time and that was the core of their 1977 and 1978 Series Championships.

1979 Trade for Thurman Munson and he is killed traveling to Cleveland.

One more thing. How many teams can boast if you enter a 2 word search you have 2 humiliating playoff defeats come up. The Drive and The Fumble.

Yes, I'm proud to say that I am a browns fan.

@wargograw said:

None of your points supported your initial premise...

Not to mention that few of the points were supported either.

@forevercleveland said:

Two disagreements.

First....every team/owner makes money. The TV money that each team gets before the season even starts guarantees that. If an NFL owner says he isn't making any money, he'd also try to sell you ocean front property in Arizona.

Second....the Browns didn't need Johnny Manziel to sell tickets. Every game has been sold out for years. Now he would bring an increase of merchandising because of his fans buying Browns jerseys. Just look at how many A&M fans showed up and are still here because of Mr. Manziel. But the Browns and Haslam didn't need Manziel to sell tickets.

@forevercleveland said:

It is my belief that Jimmy Haslam does not want the Browns to win. Yes, I realize how stupid this sounds but I will lay out a few points to support my theory.

I will try not to get too personal...mistakes may occur

The Browns profit from losing, The Browns have one of the most successful business models today. They can lose year after year and still make a profit. According to Forbes as of September 2015 the Browns are worth 1.5 Billion Dollars, and Haslam bought the team for $987 million dollars in 2012. The Browns worth grew by 513 million dollars in only three years with a current record of 18-40. The Browns have one of the most loyal fan bases in the NFL. This is great for Haslam because no matter how bad the Browns perform, he will get his money regardless. Also his marketing team finds new ways to draw back fans to a losing team. Those new uniforms seam like a thing of the past and the season isn't over yet

***Correction*** the season for the Browns is over, but they are required to still attend the next six games.

Manziel was drafted to sell tickets, plain and simple. "Johnny Football" was one the most successful college brands in college history. People were drawn in to see him play and it was a marketing success for him and Texas A&M. He blew up on social media and throughout the sports world. Haslam realized the potential to sell tickets and give the fans hope for a franchise quarterback after the swift firing of Rob Chudzinski and media bashing of Browns management. Season Ticket sales went through the roof after Johnny was drafted by the Browns, Success for Haslam.

Manziel Was setup to fail. Many of his flaws were pointed out and exposed by multiple football analysts. His partying habits were well known and documented, yet the Browns still chose to draft him and place him in a offense that doesn't cater to his strengths. They also signed Josh McCown who is at the tail end of his career and possibly could be forced to retire due to age/injury or a possible poor performance. Although Josh has played decently as a starter he was not a long term option and neither is Johnny. We are right on track to begin the two year cycle again. After a video surfaces on instagram, which does not show Johnny consuming alcohol the Browns bench him and place him as a 3rd string. Effectively they have destroyed any chance of getting a decent trade trade for him at the end of the season.

The Two Year Cycle, we have replaced a coach every 2.3 years on average since the browns returned to Cleveland, The most successful teams in the NFL generally have a coach four or more years..This two year cycle for the browns involves the following

-New Quarterback

-New Running back

-New Coach

-New Defensive Scheme

-New Offensive Scheme

Haslam has continued this cycle with the exception of Rob Chudzinski. I do believe that Mike Pettine will be fired or demoted at the end of the year regardless of what Jimmy says. On the other hand he could get another shot if Jimmy wants to save face and stick to his word....for once.

Same Old Browns, Wasted draft picks, bad coaching, bad free agency moves, just bad everything. Being this consistently bad reeks of a plan to fail. The book written by Terry Pluto named "False Start: How the New Browns Were Set Up to Fail" had listed basically everything wrong with the Browns. The book was written in 2004, and eleven years later the same things are being done again and again.

The fans suffer, not the team. I constantly hear about these poor players, or "How could anyone stand playing for the Browns?"...MONEY THAT'S WHY!. What if i told you, you will receive a 2 year, $12.5 million contract, with $9 million guaranteed to play (Dwayne Bowe). Even with the highest taxes that is about 3.5 million a year. Let's also say you will be paid that money whether or not you perform well. Most players are going to take that money and not care whether they win or lose because at the end of the day they still got paid. It can been seen multiple times throughout the games where players are laughing while losing. Once again the fans are suffering the most. We are essentially paying to watch a team lose in the worst possible fashion ever single year, and for some reason we keep on paying.

Draft Picks, Our last 8 draft picks, have had little to no impact on the team. Danny Shelton and Cameron Evring still need time to develop, but most likely won't under the Regime.

2012 3 Trent Richardson RB Alabama 22 Brandon Weeden QB Oklahoma State 2013 6 Barkevious Mingo OLB Louisiana State 2014 8 Justin Gilbert CB Oklahoma State 22 Johnny Manziel QB Texas A&M 2015 12 Danny Shelton DT Washington 19 Cameron Erving

To summarize what I've said, read below

Owner = Manufacturing Hope, Making more money

GM = Collecting a Check

Coaches = Collecting a Check

Players = Collecting a Check

Cheerleaders = Coming 2016, The next Browns Marketing to the fans

Fans = Will be ripped off, let down, left in the cold, and will return to pay for more of The Factory of Sadness

Fuck this im depressed now, OH WAIT THE CAVS PLAY TONIGHT!

Happiness restored

Wow. wow.