<![CDATA[Lets look at the D.....last year/this year]]>Ok.....kinda worn out on all the group think about scheme, coaching and mis-using players, etc.....

Can we take an honest look at whats different this year, from last year?...cause to me, its one thing

PASS DEFENSE...thats it...the one BIG difference....(not scheme or coaching, which are the same)...

Last season, we had the #1 pass defense, which is the only reason we were in most of those games(plus the fact that we had an UBER easy schedule)....so........

  1. A good pass defense forces the QB to hold the ball.....and when he holds the ball, we get more time to rush the passer
  2. More time to rush means,,,more sacks....more hurries....and more bad(rushed) passes...
  3. And that means the defense gets interceptions...and interceptions stop the other team from scoring, and give our team EXTRA chances to score.....
  4. So....a bad pass defense will net less sacks, less interceptions, more yards thru the air, and more TD's thru the air......

Now.....lets looks at last years numbers compared to this years numbers.....shall we????

2014 2015

Passing yards: 224 ypg 262 ypg .....+17% increase.....(huge drop off)

Rushing yards: 141 ypg 136 ypg .....- 3.5% decrease...(slight improvement)

Passing TD's 1.3 pg 2.1 pg ......90% increase.......(huge drop off)

Rushing TD's: 1.0 pg 1.0 pg .......same...

Interceptions: 21(1.3 pg) 8.0(.6 pg).....50% decrease..... (huge drop off)

Sacks: 31(1.9 pg) 17(1.4 pg).....25% decrease......(huge drop off)...

Interesting stats is that the "team"(less Kruger) averaged 1.2 sacks this year AND last year, meaning that Kruger is really the only difference between this years sacks and last years sacks......

So...the same rushing yards, same rushing average, same rushing TD's......but way worse when we look at passing yards, passing TD's, interceptions and associated sacks....

And the D line and LB's have basically the EXACT sme numbers this year, as last year.....same tackles, same sacks, same rushing averages, same everything.....so, to say we've started to use them differently or have changed the scheme is a fallacy.....

The ONLY difference is the pass D....which has affected everything else......

And, its not due to a new scheme....or using the players differently.....its due to Haden and Gipson missing most of the season....and not playing well in the games they were here.....

Traymon has put up better #'s than Skrine and Donte has been his usual self.... BUT, Poyer, Gaines and Desir are NOT Gipson and Haden.....period.....

And, if your pass defense isnt up to snuff, good QB's will take advantage....and thats what happened......instead of getting run all over, this year we got sliced by Big Ben, Phillip Rivers, Andy Dalton(twice), Derek Carr, Carson Palmer and Peyton Manning.....so, that is 7 games that we lost to great QB's, who all saw what Im trying to spell out here......a team that could easily be passed on....

And they got us......Manning, Rivers and Carr all snatched a victory at the end, in games that we probably would have won last season.....with a better pass D.....

So.....to those that say we are worse because Kruger has to cover....or Oneill made bad calls.....or we changed the scheme.....or whatever your reason is.....I say BAH HUMBUG....

Its the pass D.....The numbers show it.....And, when we get our DB's back, it will change.....

And Iv shown, numerous times now, how Kruger and the other LB's are paying the same(yet people keep claiming otherwise) and the D line is actually a touch better......and NOW ive shown how the pass D failed and backed it with stats......so.....

If you disagree(which is cool)....PLEASE.....for almost the hundredth time.....someone show me where the scheme changed....or where all these mis-uses of players are occurring.....or where Oneill made all the "bad calls" I keep hearing about.....

Lastly....as mentioned on another thread....Id like people to consider that, while saying coaching is the reason these guys are playing poorly, people REFUSE to acknowledge that many of our players have had their best seasons under Pettine.....

Players who have had "career years" include....Barnidge, Schwartz, McCown, Benji, Gipson, Greco, Hawkins, Skrine and Kruger.....

Players who have maintained their level of play or gotten better since coming here, with no drop off from the previous year, include.....Lee, Starks, Traymon, Dansby, Whitner, Thomas, Haden, Bryant, Austin and Robertson ....

And young players we've brought in have also played well and developed, like.....Kirksey, Bito, Duke, Kwaun, Gabe, Orchard & Shelton....

So.....this year I see some injured guys who have dropped off....Haden, Gipson & Mack are 3 Pro-Bowlers who have not been themselves....but Im blaming injury, not the coach......

Kruger and Mingo have dropped off, but I blame the pass D, which I think was the main reason they did better last year.....

And Bito and Crow both seem to have suffered from the sophmore jinx.....but certainly not because of ONeill....right?......

So...there is my view....the pass D hurts everything.....But I dont see players getting worse......

.

]]>https://brownsboard.com/topic/38958/lets-look-at-the-d.....last-year-this-yearRSS for NodeThu, 01 Oct 2026 20:20:17 GMTSun, 13 Dec 2015 16:31:12 GMT60<![CDATA[Reply to Lets look at the D.....last year/this year on Wed, 23 Dec 2015 14:21:38 GMT]]>

@clevfan4life said:

to be fair there were 2 or so occasions where that spin move got him close to Wilson. Wilson was just getting the ball out so quick all day.

Well....to be fair to Kruger, he did get a few good hurries in......and, if the WR's weren't so damn wide open, he might have gotten a sack or two.....maybe....😉

]]>https://brownsboard.com/post/561561https://brownsboard.com/post/561561Wed, 23 Dec 2015 14:21:38 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Lets look at the D.....last year/this year on Tue, 22 Dec 2015 23:05:16 GMT]]>

@jiggins7919 said:

Bottom line, we give up too many points, AND too many yards. No matter how you slice it, we're aren't getting the job done. We don't get consistent pressure on the QB, we don't force enough turnovers, and we give up too many touchdowns instead of forcing FG's (I don't have the numbers, but I'm guessing we aren't a good red zone defense). Oh, and we don't stop the run...haven't in a while.

We lack skill at the OLB position. Our secondary was devastated by injuries. We haven't tackled well (for the most part), and we have a severe lack of true play makers. Our first round picks haven't made the impact we'd hoped for, and that really hurts us. Shelton is doing "ok" for a rookie, and he plays a position that doesn't generally produce eye-popping numbers. It's not a glamorous position, and from what I read, he's making some rookie mistakes, but also holding his own at times. I wish I could say the same about Gilbert, who appears to be on his way out. Not getting ANY production out of the #8 pick cripples a team.

no playmakers, no physical lb's, piss poor tackling etc etc leads to where we are....3-11 and soon to be 3-13

]]>https://brownsboard.com/post/561361https://brownsboard.com/post/561361Tue, 22 Dec 2015 23:05:16 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Lets look at the D.....last year/this year on Tue, 22 Dec 2015 20:50:33 GMT]]>to be fair there were 2 or so occasions where that spin move got him close to Wilson. Wilson was just getting the ball out so quick all day. I even saw Kruger break out a power rip instead of the slap tickle reach around he usually goes with. I guess he's working on his craft, who knew?

]]>https://brownsboard.com/post/561335https://brownsboard.com/post/561335Tue, 22 Dec 2015 20:50:33 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Lets look at the D.....last year/this year on Tue, 22 Dec 2015 18:25:04 GMT]]>

@tour2ma said:

Going to go out on a limb and guess you were not praising Cumberland's strength...

Can't remember the play, but want to say it was early in the game when Kruger broke out a move I haven't seen from him in a while. After barely bumping into the LT with a "bull rush", he then spun right in front of the LT with no lateral move at all... I swear I could almost hear the LT laugh.

Ha....yes, I saw that one too.....like a "spin in place".....ballerina style....

]]>https://brownsboard.com/post/561295https://brownsboard.com/post/561295Tue, 22 Dec 2015 18:25:04 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Lets look at the D.....last year/this year on Tue, 22 Dec 2015 17:32:42 GMT]]>Going to go out on a limb and guess you were not praising Cumberland's strength...

Can't remember the play, but want to say it was early in the game when Kruger broke out a move I haven't seen from him in a while. After barely bumping into the LT with a "bull rush", he then spun right in front of the LT with no lateral move at all... I swear I could almost hear the LT laugh.

]]>https://brownsboard.com/post/561274https://brownsboard.com/post/561274Tue, 22 Dec 2015 17:32:42 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Lets look at the D.....last year/this year on Tue, 22 Dec 2015 15:20:19 GMT]]>

@tour2ma said:

So where'd the loss come from? ......Losing individual match-ups..

There it is....

DB's getting owned in one on one coverage....

OLB's getting owned in one on one pass rush attempts.....

Rewatched the Jets game this morning and watched their TE (Cumberland) literally throw Kruger to the ground.....TWICE.....

]]>https://brownsboard.com/post/561222https://brownsboard.com/post/561222Tue, 22 Dec 2015 15:20:19 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Lets look at the D.....last year/this year on Mon, 21 Dec 2015 00:35:27 GMT]]>

@canton-dawg said:

But more talented than the Browns.

Absolutely... especially on the Defensive side.

]]>https://brownsboard.com/post/560673https://brownsboard.com/post/560673Mon, 21 Dec 2015 00:35:27 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Lets look at the D.....last year/this year on Mon, 21 Dec 2015 00:24:55 GMT]]>

@tour2ma said:

Seattle is not that talented.

But more talented than the Browns.

]]>https://brownsboard.com/post/560668https://brownsboard.com/post/560668Mon, 21 Dec 2015 00:24:55 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Lets look at the D.....last year/this year on Mon, 21 Dec 2015 00:21:06 GMT]]>Today I saw a clear example of a prepared Defense that was simply overmatched.

Time after time our D was ready for the PA that SEA threw at us. Even roll outs with designed screen throwbacks were defended. Only a couple naked boots worked... and then just barely...

That's preparation... that's discipline.... that's scheme.

So where'd the loss come from? Losing individual match-ups... In the first half it was in the secondary. In the second in was in the front seven. And here's the kicker... Seattle is not that talented.

]]>https://brownsboard.com/post/560666https://brownsboard.com/post/560666Mon, 21 Dec 2015 00:21:06 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Lets look at the D.....last year/this year on Sun, 20 Dec 2015 15:39:19 GMT]]>

@jiggins7919 said:

We don't get consistent pressure on the QB.....we don't force enough turnovers.....We lack skill at the OLB position.....Our secondary was devastated by injuries.....We haven't tackled well...... we have a severe lack of true play makers.....Our first round picks haven't made the impact we'd hoped for....

Well....that about sums it up....

And all because Kruger and Armonty had to cover a pass route....😉

]]>https://brownsboard.com/post/560510https://brownsboard.com/post/560510Sun, 20 Dec 2015 15:39:19 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Lets look at the D.....last year/this year on Sat, 19 Dec 2015 14:31:34 GMT]]>Bottom line, we give up too many points, AND too many yards. No matter how you slice it, we're aren't getting the job done. We don't get consistent pressure on the QB, we don't force enough turnovers, and we give up too many touchdowns instead of forcing FG's (I don't have the numbers, but I'm guessing we aren't a good red zone defense). Oh, and we don't stop the run...haven't in a while.

We lack skill at the OLB position. Our secondary was devastated by injuries. We haven't tackled well (for the most part), and we have a severe lack of true play makers. Our first round picks haven't made the impact we'd hoped for, and that really hurts us. Shelton is doing "ok" for a rookie, and he plays a position that doesn't generally produce eye-popping numbers. It's not a glamorous position, and from what I read, he's making some rookie mistakes, but also holding his own at times. I wish I could say the same about Gilbert, who appears to be on his way out. Not getting ANY production out of the #8 pick cripples a team.

]]>https://brownsboard.com/post/560348https://brownsboard.com/post/560348Sat, 19 Dec 2015 14:31:34 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Lets look at the D.....last year/this year on Fri, 18 Dec 2015 18:08:15 GMT]]>

@canton-dawg said:

The 2013 Browns defense sucked, I don't give a rat's ass how you want to spin it.

Fortunately, your misguided opinion on things has zero effect on how they actually are. If it did, I'm sure this world would be a much different place.

]]>https://brownsboard.com/post/560232https://brownsboard.com/post/560232Fri, 18 Dec 2015 18:08:15 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Lets look at the D.....last year/this year on Fri, 18 Dec 2015 17:19:15 GMT]]>

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:

Who said they were a defensive juggernaut? I said "weren't they top 10", you said no, you were wrong. Now you're trying to construct unrelated arguments to validate your mistake.

That's really all there is to it. This didn't need to be three pages of you huffing and puffing and trying to make a point.

The 2013 Browns defense sucked, I don't give a rat's ass how you want to spin it.

]]>https://brownsboard.com/post/560209https://brownsboard.com/post/560209Fri, 18 Dec 2015 17:19:15 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Lets look at the D.....last year/this year on Fri, 18 Dec 2015 17:08:23 GMT]]>

@canton-dawg said:

Show me ANY chart that proves that the Browns were a defensive juggernaut in 2013 then we can both move on.

Who said they were a defensive juggernaut? I said "weren't they top 10", you said no, you were wrong. Now you're trying to construct unrelated arguments to validate your mistake.

That's really all there is to it. This didn't need to be three pages of you huffing and puffing and trying to make a point.

]]>https://brownsboard.com/post/560206https://brownsboard.com/post/560206Fri, 18 Dec 2015 17:08:23 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Lets look at the D.....last year/this year on Fri, 18 Dec 2015 16:48:49 GMT]]>

@mudfly said:

They were 4-12.....and still are....

Nothing really to debate there...

At least you get the gist.

W's & L's are the ultimate metric.

]]>https://brownsboard.com/post/560194https://brownsboard.com/post/560194Fri, 18 Dec 2015 16:48:49 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Lets look at the D.....last year/this year on Fri, 18 Dec 2015 16:45:26 GMT]]>They were 4-12.....and still are....

Nothing really to debate there...

]]>https://brownsboard.com/post/560192https://brownsboard.com/post/560192Fri, 18 Dec 2015 16:45:26 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Lets look at the D.....last year/this year on Fri, 18 Dec 2015 16:43:26 GMT]]>

@wargograw said:

This is scoring defense which is not the go-to metric of good defense.

Just admit you read the original chart incorrectly and move on.

Show me ANY chart that proves that the Browns were a defensive juggernaut in 2013 then we can both move on.]]>https://brownsboard.com/post/560190https://brownsboard.com/post/560190Fri, 18 Dec 2015 16:43:26 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Lets look at the D.....last year/this year on Fri, 18 Dec 2015 16:29:07 GMT]]>

@wargograw said:

Points per drive is the best metric as it allows for offenses that score quickly.

But not defenses and special teams that give them good field position. An offense that drives 70 yards and picks up just a field goal is still better than one whose D gives them the ball 30 yards out but doesn't move at all and settles for a field goal, no?

]]>https://brownsboard.com/post/560179https://brownsboard.com/post/560179Fri, 18 Dec 2015 16:29:07 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Lets look at the D.....last year/this year on Fri, 18 Dec 2015 16:26:21 GMT]]>

@canton-dawg said:

I'm using the numbers that best support my claim....you know the same thing you were doing with Mud.

Actually, I was using the numbers that best showed the comparative performance of our players.

But not everybody can understand simple things like facts, so I understand the confusion.

]]>https://brownsboard.com/post/560178https://brownsboard.com/post/560178Fri, 18 Dec 2015 16:26:21 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Lets look at the D.....last year/this year on Fri, 18 Dec 2015 16:25:48 GMT]]>Points per drive is the best metric as it allows for offenses that score quickly.

]]>https://brownsboard.com/post/560177https://brownsboard.com/post/560177Fri, 18 Dec 2015 16:25:48 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Lets look at the D.....last year/this year on Fri, 18 Dec 2015 16:22:51 GMT]]>

@canton-dawg said:

Pro Football Reference has them as the 23rd ranked defense.

No matter how you slice it, they were not a defensive juggernaut in 2013 (which is my point).

2013 Defensive Rankings.JPG

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2013/opp.htm

This is scoring defense which is not the go-to metric of good defense.

Just admit you read the original chart incorrectly and move on.

]]>https://brownsboard.com/post/560175https://brownsboard.com/post/560175Fri, 18 Dec 2015 16:22:51 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Lets look at the D.....last year/this year on Fri, 18 Dec 2015 16:21:23 GMT]]>But, in the end, its points that win.....and if you look at the numbers, the teams that allow the fewest points win more than the teams that allow the fewest yards....with yards, anomalies happen.....not AS much with points....

Below are the top 5 D's against PTS and Yards....and the top 5 O's in scoring and yards.....Most of the team clearly belong and are playoff bound....(on both lists)...but there are basically 4 that dont fit(non play-off teams at the moment)....note that 3 outta 4(75%) show up on the yards list.....but only 1 shows up on Points......and that 1 may actually end up in the Play-offs....

So....based on yards....Teams like the Jets and Saints can end up at the topof the rankings, while still losing.....just like the Browns did with a bad defense in 2013...0f 2014.....etc.

But..based on points.... teams that control the scoring....both ways.....end up at the top of the rankings AND standings.....

Defense-PTS........................YDS.................Offense-PTS.............YDS...........

Broncos - 1st Broncos - 1st Panther- 1st Cardinals- 1st

Bengals - 1st Seahawks-2nd Cardinals- 1st Steelers - 2nd

Seahawks-2nd Panthers - 1st Patriots - 1st Patriots - 1st

Chiefs - 2nd Cardinals - 1st Bengals - 1st Saints - 4th

Panthers-1st Jets - 2nd Steelers - 2nd Seahawks - 2nd

]]>https://brownsboard.com/post/560174https://brownsboard.com/post/560174Fri, 18 Dec 2015 16:21:23 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Lets look at the D.....last year/this year on Fri, 18 Dec 2015 16:07:28 GMT]]>

@canton-dawg said:

Right, there's an advantage and disadvantage of using either metric.

However, I prefer to use points scored as a metric for measuring the effectiveness of an offense.

If they can move the ball 80 yards, and not score any points it really doesn't help them win the game.

Seems contradictory to me....but you're not wrong. We saw that offense for several games in a row I think this year.

]]>https://brownsboard.com/post/560167https://brownsboard.com/post/560167Fri, 18 Dec 2015 16:07:28 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Lets look at the D.....last year/this year on Fri, 18 Dec 2015 16:04:38 GMT]]>

@mark-o said:

However....I'd still rather have a defense that gives up tons of yards and not a lot of points. Defense allows an 80 yard drive but holds them to 3 points or forces a turnover inside the 20 is a better defense than the one that keeps giving up points.

Right, there's an advantage and disadvantage of using either metric.

However, I prefer to use points scored as a metric for measuring the effectiveness of an offense.

If they can move the ball 80 yards, and not score any points it really doesn't help them win the game.

]]>https://brownsboard.com/post/560166https://brownsboard.com/post/560166Fri, 18 Dec 2015 16:04:38 GMT