@opal312 said:

Can you give some insight on Erving? Is it because he's playing out of position. There are teams that would kill to have him. What's the future for him?

I can give you my opinion... Erving is a "tweener"... not built for the inside, not athletic enough for the outside. In time, however, he should get stronger and he will benefit from a swap to Center where either he can get help more readily or more second-level assignments.

VesnaKociper said:

Now, let me get this straight......... he drafts players with credentials, that have performed at a very high level, THEN, when they come here they are shit..........and THAT is Farmer's fault?

Every GM misses... some more than others... some with higher picks than others.

@the-gipper said:

The Browns lost "chemistry" when their entire defensive line left: Sheard, Rubin, Taylor, Kitchen, Winn.

I wonder what the price of these missing pieces would add to our league high payroll?

Aside: Knew where Sheard, Rubin and Winn are. Was not sure about Big Phil and Kitchen. Phil is still out, but worked out for the Vikes a couple days ago. Kit appeared in one game for Detroit and was released at some point, but he has just signed with the Pats.

@bbedward said:

Im with you 100%.....

And who ever gets to Coach this team next year "should" have a better chance at winning, with Gordon and the DB's back healthy....plus players like Bito, Johnny, Shelton, Kirksey and Orchard will be another year developed (IE..better).....and, if resigned, Id expect a stronger season from Gipson and Mack, who will be completely healed from those leg injuries....

Any time the team plays well enough to win and is robbed by such a tiny twist of fate it's infuriating.

And as much as I don't agree with what I think Mike Pettine's shortcomings might be, if I were Jimmy I keep the staff in place for another year. As a matter of fact I'd make that announcement today.

Next season we should face a slightly easier schedule and add one more year to the team familiarizing themselves with whatever system is in place.

He gives us another 4 and 12 or 5 and 11 season, fire him with no regret.

WSS

But really, they were both pretty bad teams.

If we can get the 2013 Gordon, Haden, Mack, Gipson to get back into form in 2016 things look a lot better for us than they do otherwise.

@the-gipper said:

Well, he has a hell of a lot of tackles for being "not a good tackler", considering that he's approaching top 10 all time right now with 1100 + tackles.......

If he plays a couple more years, he has a good chance to finish as one of the TOP 5 tacklers in NFL history....

But, I do get your point.....they weren't "good" tackles......ha!

@opal312 said:

The Browns lost "chemistry" when their entire defensive line left: Sheard, Rubin, Taylor, Kitchen, Winn.

But, that said, that group didn't make anyone forget the Fearsome Foursome or the Purple People Eaters.

The kids we have now could turn out better...with time....and proper coaching. (which they have not gotten to this point)

And,yes, DQwell was a good leader....but he was not a good tackler....unless you are talking 8-10 yards downfield.

@gftchris said:

Yeah, I could definitely agree with that....didnt really want to get too into it with this guy or that....as the primary point was to show no serious upgrades happened anywhere....just small incremental stuff....And that some big drop offs like Gordon, Mack or Sheard happened, with no comparable or better replacements.. ...

So....in the end......my question is simply how much better is this team than that 4-12 team?.....

Zombo said:

Both of these teams had some heartbreaking close losses/couldn't finish.

But take a look at this year's close losses and let me know if it changes your perception of this team:

So we are three plays from 6-7. If we were 6-7 right now, with all of the injuries (McCown, Hawk, Gabe, Bito, Haden, Gipson, etc.) against a tough schedule in a tough division, does it change your perspective of this team?

Just something to consider.

But if I had to choose one to keep, Pet of Farmer, I would keep Pet. I doubt it ends up that way though.

Zombo

I think we are kind of in the same boat...maybe?......as I agree with you on some of those wins that got snatched away.....and if you factor in the loss of our pass D, then it really hits home.....

Plus....like you did here....we can take a walk back to last season and see we won a few that we were kinda lucky to win and that coulda shoulda been losses.....and to me, some of those games really showed toughness late, the ability to adjust at the half and a team willing to fight to the end.....all of which came off as good coaching......

.....like the record comeback against Tennessee ......or our last second victories over NO and Atl.....

So....like you said, with a few plays that go the other way, we could be 6-7 right now........and if a few plays went the other way last year, we could have just as easily been 4-12.....

2013 it was New England (ugh ... still hurts) and Jax games.

But take a look at this year's close losses and let me know if it changes your perception of this team:

SD 30 Browns 27 ... Chargers missing game-winning FG, Browns called offsides, Charger get to kick again from shorter distance, and win. EVIDENCE SHOWS BROWNS WERE NOT OFFSIDES McCown 356 yds and a rating of 119. Time of possession: Browns 34:19 To 24:14

Den 26 Browns 23 OT ... Browns intercept Manning 3 times, including one in overtime in Browns territory,but then go backward featuring Robert Turbin running around end against Bronco defense.. This one is on us ... but we should have won it.

Ravens 33 Browns 27 ... Browns engineer comeback, line up for winnng FG and it is blocked, bounces right to the ravens, and they return it all the way for a TD with tim expired. EVIDENCE SHOWS RAVENS WERE LINED UP OFFSIDES.

So we are three plays from 6-7. If we were 6-7 right now, with all of the injuries (McCown, Hawk, Gabe, Bito, Haden, Gipson, etc.) against a tough schedule in a tough division, does it change your perspective of this team?

Does it make you look at Pettine differently ... grinding at 6-7 with roster holes?

How bout Farmer? Still missing on the big picks but finding some promising gems.

McCown? I think most of us respect his job, but for those hate him becuase of his record, he is 4-4 as a Brown instead of 1-7 in this scenario.

Just something to consider.

Here is how I would describe my relationship with Mike Pettine: I only hate him on Sundays.

I like the way he handles the roster. I like the way he handles/handled the Brat Pack from last year (Gilbert, Johnny, West). I like the way he talks in his pressers. He comes off as honest, thoughtful, dedicated, committed and forthright.

But when I see him on Sundays standing there, unable to manage a clock, unable to stop a team from running on us, getting gutted by the Bungles twice in year two, losing close games that were so winnable ... I want to kick him in the teeth.

But if I had to choose one to keep, Pet of Farmer, I would keep Pet. I doubt it ends up that way though.

Zombo

That might be two things, I guess.

@opal312 said:

Farmer has been able to resigned 2 players. John Hughes & Barney. Till we build a steady organization with less drama & not changing systems like panties, theses type players will continue to walk to greener pastures. Gipson, Mack & Schwartz up next & Schwartz should already be done with his output this season?

@mudfly said:

I do think we have improved some of the depth and we have some youth that might "someday" become top players....just hasnt happend yet.....

Next year Id expect Orchard & Duke to be everyday starters......but, cant think of any other new players(from '14-'15) that look ready to be everyday players....and cant think of ANY that Id expect to be Pro-Bowl caliber stars...(maybe Bito)....

Desir, Gaines, Erving, Crow, Kirksey, Cooper, Telfer, M. Johnson, Ekpre Olomu, Gilbert, Manziel and the rest are completely unproven and, right now, look like possible role players or average NFL starters at best....

But dont see any future stars that are obvious.....

We lost,our chemistry letting these guys walk. They were young and had a lot of upside. Don't understand Farmer one bit.

@mudfly said:

some of your best stuff here mud. Only thing that I can add is I liked Chud in a Toledo connection but the QB play was not good with Weeds nor Campbell. It's always been our QB play that get's coaches fired since the rebirth.. It maybe Pets D game that cost his. we shall see.. Oneil must be one hell of a friend.

@mudfly said:

Thanks.....sometimes it helps to see it in writing.....not a true breakdown, just a list.....but it IS telling, isnt it?

Farmer has brought in a couple of decent FA signings, but his ability to hit on a first round impact players sucks ass.

Outside of the OL, and secondary, this team is talent deprived.

@tour2ma said:

I do think we have improved some of the depth and we have some youth that might "someday" become top players....just hasnt happend yet.....

Next year Id expect Orchard & Duke to be everyday starters......but, cant think of any other new players(from '14-'15) that look ready to be everyday players....and cant think of ANY that Id expect to be Pro-Bowl caliber stars...(maybe Bito)....

Desir, Gaines, Erving, Crow, Kirksey, Cooper, Telfer, M. Johnson, Ekpre Olomu, Gilbert, Manziel and the rest are completely unproven and, right now, look like possible role players or average NFL starters at best....

But dont see any future stars that are obvious.....

@forevercleveland said:

Thanks.....sometimes it helps to see it in writing.....not a true breakdown, just a list.....but it IS telling, isnt it?

Great break down on the players under coaches Mud

1. In the 2014 draft we only took 5 players because a full need assessment was not completed and scouting was incomplete. Delays in filling both staff and FO positions were the cause. Rather than guess, picks were limited and accumulated for 2015.

2. Prior to the start of the season by and large, I think even to the point of forming a consensus, that we here believed that we had improved our depth at least in part by picking more starter level talent. Only 2 rookie names appear under Pet's name: Shelton and Johnson.

Another could be a lower pick if we are lucky.

And maybe one could come from the rookies and 2d year men we already have.

(and get those guys back healthy)