@tour2ma said:

Odd, maybe.

It's part of my impressions. Had I referenced the shows, and talked about them, you and Tiam

would have complained that I thought I was an expert.

I just have my opinions, of different highlights, interviews, and the workouts. Workouts can

be scripted to a point, interviews by Gruden not so much. Gruden's shows probably make

all sorts of qb's look really good. The difference in Wentz's workout, and Goff's workout...

I didn't see them whapping Goff with pool floaties, and Goff is like a dour stick in the mud in

most any interview, and Wentz is a fun interview, has a sense of humor.

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:

Guess I'll just have to call you "High Road" from now on...

Agree that my opinion is unlikely to change now as I have neither read nor seen anything to change it to date.

@calfoxwc said:

Odd then that you did not make one comment about either session?

@tour2ma said:

I watched both of them two times. Bad assumption... Watching them more than once

was the reason I recorded them..eh?

@tour2ma said:

Chucky making Wentz a "2 handed Monster" ala Carson Palmer? Palmer may need a 2nd class. Wentz with two 10" hands, it maybe some of the best advise he's been given. Thought Wentz took criticism well & kid looks coachable. Welcome back T, you get the hail storm?

@tour2ma said:

How do you check to "any play" when personnel packages limit that ability? And here's the Coaches quote:

"Theres going to be multiple times in a game where he checks from run to pass."

If NDSU had a Center that could call protections, then would he not have done so? Which is more important... making the initial call based upon early pre-snap look, or making adjustments based upon the Defense tipping its intent?

Picking a very small point in hopes of unraveling my argument shows that you recognize the truth. You know, just as I do, that there is a monumental difference between having full pre-snap control and getting essentially dual playcalls and choosing between those only two.

Further, only a true fanboy can take the fact that Goff barely called his protections and try to spin that into a positive.

You have your opinion and it won't change, but I'll at least present BOTH quotes from the same article...because I'm nice like that.

"Under Franklin, Goff had the ability to choose between the called run play and an alternate pass play, and vice versa, based on the alignment of the defense. Goff had the ability to audible individual routes on pass plays, and Franklin estimates he adjusted the protection scheme on about 10% of passing plays."

"Like Goff, Wentz had the ability in an injury-shortened 2015 season to check to a prescribed run or pass play with an additional check the coaches simply called Carson. If Wentz recognized a trouble situation, he could spout any play in the book. Additionally, Wentz was required to call out the protection on every pass play, a job for most NFL centers."

I would bet a lot of money that is true unless it's somebody else.

WSS

@tour2ma said:

It is a generalization. I have seen any number of these in the past where Gruden says these guys are going to be the greatest thing since sliced boloney......and they have been complete busts. Take JMZ for instance. Gruden gave him glowing review.

Ah....No.

So, I have learned not to trust them....but to be occasionally entertained by them.

@calfoxwc said:

Get back after you've watched them...

http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl-news/4558673-pocket-passers-no-longer-future-for-qbs-in-nfl

and,

http://nflbreakdowns.com/jared-goff-qb-cal-nfldraft2016/2/

I agree that Goff is the "best pure passer" in the draft. But Goff isn't averse to criticism for some things

that have been said about Wentz.

Either guy is fine by me, but Wentz is my favorite because of intangibles, quicker feet, more elusive in the pocket,

more a threat to run, imhso.

Of all the great things in the article about him, he isn't perfect, either.

"Goff does not go through his progressions very often on film. While at Cal Goff ran what is known as the “Bear Raid” offense, a variation on the Air Raid offense."

"First, Goff’s receiver is running a comeback route. Goff tries to throw it to his receiver anyway even though he’s in very tight coverage. The corner gets a better jump on this ball than the receiver and makes the interception. Goff trusted his receiver far too much on this play and made a throw that he simply shouldn’t have made. This type of coverage is hard to make a catch with in the first place, even if the receiver is able to get away from the corner in time to make the catch."

"Next, Goff just makes a bad decision under pressure. Backing away from the defense, and throwing off his back foot, Goff makes a very bad decision trying to get this pass to a receiver in good coverage."

"Finally, you can see how Goff locks onto his receiver running a deep post and how he tries to force this pass in to his receiver. From the first angle you can see how he has a receiver open over the middle, but tries to force this ball in to his deep man. From the second angle you get a better idea of what he saw on the play. You can see the corner in coverage the entire time with the receiver. This an extremely bad decision by Goff and shows that while he can make some great decisions, he will still lock onto his receivers and make very bad decisions once he convinces himself of the throw he has to make."

@the-gipper said:

Odd conclusion from someone who has not seen all of both of them...

@tour2ma said:

Saw just a bit of it. It will likely be repeated. Interesting. And of course....you can tell nothing from it.

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:

How do you check to "any play" when personnel packages limit that ability? And here's the Coaches quote:

"There’s going to be multiple times in a game where he checks from run to pass."

If NDSU had a Center that could call protections, then would he not have done so? Which is more important... making the initial call based upon early pre-snap look, or making adjustments based upon the Defense tipping its intent?

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:

sure it will take him the exact same time it will take Wentz and maybe one week more for Lynch and Jones......that ain't a reason to want Wentz

Browns are in a major rebuild and will be lucky to win 5 games....you want the best qb over the next 10 years if you think that's Wentz ok but say so

Marino fell because he was dumb, Bradshaw was Bradshaw, Reeves questioned Elway's ability to learn a playbook and Favre spent his 1st season drunk in Atlanta and was never accused of being a brainiac....forget the wonderlic guys it'sall ego/intstincts for qb's

yeah to the other stuff the last couple weeks before the draft get old...think all fans(and teams) are ready now

know I'm tired of looking at videos/reading interviews

@calfoxwc said:

Crazier and crazier. The Bills have been said to have watched Wentz more

than any other team?

The Bills need a qb. Will they draft Lynch at 19? Or second round pick Cardale Jones or...

trade down ....

This draft is going to be fun.

The Bills have a QB though.

@tour2ma said:

Franklin says the biggest misconception hes had to address is the complexity of the Bear Raid offense, a branch off the Air Raid offense developed in the late 80s by Hal Mumme and Mike Leach, which many football types believe affords the quarterback little opportunity to make pre-snap judgment calls. They couldnt be more wrong, Franklin says.

People think because were in this Air Raid family that theres one or two progressions for the quarterback, which is really an insult because its nowhere near the truth, Franklin says. We give the quarterback an incredible amount of responsibility and (Goff) got more than any quarterback since Ive been coaching.

He probably had more on his shoulders before the snap than any quarterback in the NFL.

Under Franklin, Goff had the ability to choose between the called run play and an alternate pass play, and vice versa, based on the alignment of the defense. Goff had the ability to audible individual routes on pass plays, and Franklin estimates he adjusted the protection scheme on about 10% of passing plays.

Exactly my point. In the very same article, read about Wentz - who was given COMPLETE control pre-snap.

Goff's own OC admitted that Goff was allowed to change between only two plays pre-snap, the called play and one alternate. Conversely, Wentz was given carte blanche to change any play, at any given time, to any other play he wanted.

Goff's own OC admitted that Goff adjusted his protection on "about 10%" of plays. Conversely, in the very same article, Wentz is credited with changing his protection on 100% of plays.

Goff really only had full control to change routes on designated passing plays.

So, if you want your quarterback to walk to the line, read man off 2-deep shell coverage with a blitzing weakside OLB and then call off his run play, slide his protection to the blitz, audible his slot WR to a deep post, hot the TE, and send his RB on block and release...don't expect Goff to be able to do that off the bat.

than any other team?

The Bills need a qb. Will they draft Lynch at 19? Or second round pick Cardale Jones or...

trade down ....

This draft is going to be fun.

@hoorta said:

@poplarbluffman said:

This is the silly season- and there's about as many trade down rumors as goofy trade up rumors- including the Rams jumping to #1 overall to take Wentz. IMHO- the only two teams that realistically could jump the Browns are the Cowboys and 49ers- and you can bet if they do they're taking a quarterback. It would be cost prohibitive for anyone else. (the Eagles don't have a 2nd round pick this year.)

BTW, there's been rumors the Broncos are interested in McCown.

Hue has already said picking up RG III doesn't preclude the Browns taking a QB @ #2, and Griffin has stated he's cool with that scenario if it comes to pass.

Don't know if I'm in the majority of browns fans- but I like to think I am- Cleveland has been shopping the Bargain Bin, 2nd or third best rated QBs- or lower, third round guys like McCoy and Frye- Free agents like Dilfer or Garcia for well over a decade. Personally, I'm damn tired of going for factory seconds. We haven't drafted a QB in the top 5 since Couch- and I say its about damn time to pull the trigger, assuming Hue and the FO think they're Franchise caliber.

And in reply to Gip- the only "developmental" quarterback I'm interested in is Cardale Jones- and not before the third round.

@poplarbluffman said:

What do you mean by "high pick development QB?"

In this day and age, any team that drafts a QB #2 overall.....that guy is starting from Day One. He does not get the luxury to develop.

He must play and he must play now.

If the Browns take a guy #2....HE is our starter....not RGIII. Griffin will be the backup. Plain and simple.

On the other hand, you mean "high" like 3rd round high.....that is another matter. Yes, he sits and develops....unless he proves himself to like Russell Wilson and grabs the job by the jock right at the outset.

looks like RG3 starting, backed up by McCown with a high pick developmental qb. are there a lot of trade down rumors in Cleveland? Poplar

****************************

And that is the question, alright. RG admits he's grown a lot. Does it mean the Browns might draft a second tier qb?

Trade down and get Lynch and keep him on the bench for a year? nobody knows. It's flat out crazy.

I'll support whatever the Browns do and whoever they pick. But, if they pick Goff over Wentz at two...

I'll fall out of my chair laughing, rof,l... and I'll just have to remind Canton Mike and Mr. Flugels to not step/stomp on me...

I don't see trade down rumors... it could happen. Suppose Dallas wants Bosa, and they think the Chargers

want him. It could happen that Dallas trades ahead of them with the Browns.... or the Chargers do a little

switch positions with the Browns to keep Dallas at bay. Sounds goofy, but I would hope it would happen,

and the Browns could still get Wentz, and out of respect for Canton Mike's mancave, I'll put my food and drink

down before I do a happy dance.

@poplarbluffman said:

Not really rumours of anything, basically nobody knows and anything could happen.