@clevfan4life said:

OK.... there done... and, no... not with Wheezy.

And I'll throw in a second for free... also not with JM...

@gftchris said:

... there are enough holes to keep Elway on his toes, and necessitate some good drafting/dealing if they're to be back in the big game.

Yup... and the Raiders sure aren't standing pat.

@mudfly said:

No, I WOULD have the same expectation of Goff and Wentz.....if they were drafted....Just like I had expectations of Weeden, Quinn, Manziel. But I question whether or not they will meet those expectations and that we may all again be disappointed. (only this time it would be worse as those would be #2 overall, not #22 overall).

Honestly...I expect every first round pick the Browns take to be Pro Bowl caliber. While, yes, I expect that.....clearly those expectations are rarely delivered upon. (and I am talking about any position...not just QB).

I think most people would say if you see your franchise QB sitting there, you dont draft other players first and just hope that your future drops to you....everyone knows QB's are drafted higher than their actual value(which you've been yelling about the past month with Wentz and Goff)....so, why all of a sudden switch your stance and say that just because they were (late) first round picks, you suddenly expect them to perform like it???....esp when you dont have the same expectation for Goff and Wentz....

@mudfly said:

They were still first round draft picks. And are you saying that it is not only in Cleveland that a first round draft pick is not expected to become a significantly productive starting player?

@texasag1969 said:

Well, where I can certainly meet in the middle is I don't care where or how the QB gets found. If the brass don't like Goff or Wentz for w/e reason, I'm fine with stockpiling good players (of course we gotta actually draft good players ) and suffering another below average season with McCown and insert 2nd/3rd string QB. That being said, I'm really high on Goff so I hope he's the pick.

@jrb12711 said:

Just tugging on your leg a bit.

@texasag1969 said:

That's why I said since 2003, aka after Tampa Bay won?

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:

Peyton was one of the worst in the league last year. He may have been the worst of all starters in terms of rating. The guy only had like four games with a rating above 80.

Like I said, I'm willing to bend on the idea some with Manning this year. I understand, really I do, but a broken down Peyton Manning is still not on the same level as a Trent Dilfer.

@jrb12711 said:

Eh, we'll just disagree on that. I get where you're going, but I think even a 40 year old Peyton Manning was still top 10-11 in the league last year.

I'd flip this around a little bit, but this is pretty much how I saw it last year:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000524987/article/qb-index-ranking-the-starters-132

Again, name one team who has won the SB since 2003 who didn't have a true franchise QB at the helm (and don't give me that Joe Flacco bullshit like he isn't a franchise dude). Manning this year is as close of an argument you can make. There's plenty of examples in the history of the game but none in almost 15 years running.

Peyton was one of the worst in the league last year. He may have been the worst of all starters in terms of rating. The guy only had like four games with a rating above 80.

Physically he can be an average QB, but his head on an average QB's shoulders makes the package well above average.

@jrb12711 said:

So now we have Tampa Bay and the Broncos. Both superb defensive teams! LOL!

@texasag1969 said:

Eh, we'll just disagree on that. I get where you're going, but I think even a 40 year old Peyton Manning was still top 10-11 in the league last year.

I'd flip this around a little bit, but this is pretty much how I saw it last year:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000524987/article/qb-index-ranking-the-starters-132

@skippinturtles said:

You need a franchise QB to win multiple SB's. You can get one with D and a kicker. Getting one is awesome.

Again, name one team who has won the SB since 2003 who didn't have a true franchise QB at the helm (and don't give me that Joe Flacco bullshit like he isn't a franchise dude). Manning this year is as close of an argument you can make. There's plenty of examples in the history of the game but none in almost 15 years running.

@mudfly said:

Add the fact that so many QB's are not great until they are on a great team....then suddenly.....

And, as soon as one wins a SB, he gets dubbed as a superstar and future HOFer.....except the couple that everyone mentions, who were obviously no where near that level.....

I disagree.. teams go as the QB goes...

@jrb12711 said:

This is what you said, "Look at any team that has won a super bowl past Tampa Bay and think if those dudes weren't top 10 at their position at the time".

I was giving you the answer that no, he was not very good compared to his prime and certainly not top 10 at his position.

We have drafted 4 QBs in round one......and I don't care that they were lower in round one...they were first rounders. A QB drafted in round one is expected to become a team's franchise QB. So it is bollux to say that we have only gone the "build the team first before getting a QB" routel.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

well you do have to account for the fact that our last 3 first round QB's were all the second pick we made.....Thomas came ahead of Quinn.....Richardson came ahead of Weeds......Gilbert came ahead of Manziel...

So, in reality, it was team ahead of QB in 3 outta 4 .......and by taking other players first, it's also pretty clear that the Browns weren't sold on any of these guys as a franchise QBs, otherwise they wouldnt have risked losing them by picking other positions first....

So, not really bullox, but actually fact....

I think we just had 2 picks and decided we could risk the second one by throwing caution to the wind on players that we hoped might be good.....(emphasis on the word hoped, as opposed to expected)

@miktoxic said:

We have drafted 4 QBs in round one......and I don't care that they were lower in round one...they were first rounders. A QB drafted in round one is expected to become a team's franchise QB. So it is bollux to say that we have only gone the "build the team first before getting a QB" routel.

isn't an A.J. Green.

as i've said in another thread: let hue 'the QB guru' draft us a franchise QB and let that be this regime's legacy for the brown's history and hopefully future before he gets canned.

@jrb12711 said:

But, a few....see above examples...have. Again, no, not the norm, but notable exceptions.

@jrb12711 said:

Yeah, because boy that Manning fella isn't an all-time great QB.

No one says you don't need a great, even dominant defense to win. But you can't win with a mediocre QB either

Well no you can win, ur defense just has to be that much better. Last season manning was beyond awful. You do realize if that if he had been that way his whole career he would never have even played d1 ball. His knowledge of the game was the only thing that kept him in there.

As per ur statement i would also offer you cant win with a bottom tier defense either. Our defense is preposterous. Yes i said preposterous. Means i cant beleive it even exists. We would have been in the playofs two years ago "easily" if we had only had an avg defense

@texasag1969 said:

Yeah, because boy that Manning fella isn't an all-time great QB.

No one says you don't need a great, even dominant defense to win. But you can't win with a mediocre QB either

@jrb12711 said:

I guess you weren't pay close attention to the Denver QB problem all season long. The D won the season and the playoffs including the SB which is why Manning retired. He knew the truth.