@gftchris said:

Great post Chris! You said all that way better than I did in about 30 paragraphs less dadblast ya!

Here's something we shouldn't lose sight of - with 3 playoff teams right in our own division - we finished 7-9 in 2014 regardless of how many injuries all over the roster we worked around throughout it. That included a lot of 2nd half leads we couldn't keep in the absence of play makers on both sides of the ball. And when we did get our alleged play maker back to join our pleasant surprise of 6-4 in progress - he wasn't exactly the difference maker everyone expected after his empty promises. Not caring enough to know the playbook or avoid getting suspended for the final game is a classic reminder of where this guy fits football career into his priorities.

I get a feeling based on the types of players this FO went after - we're not going to be held hostage by any more Potsie Gordon pedigrees again. 1 brief period of success in 2013 before his football career went on a milk carton with has anyone seen this Pro Bowl Receiver? I love Ohio State but a guy like Bosa beginning 2015 on suspension followed by just 5 sacks red-flagged me more than his previous seasons of success excited me. I'm glad we traded back to add picks instead while finding players that looked hungrier IMO. When Mayock is calling him Spiccoli at the draft for more than 1 reason - I'm okay with someone else rolling the dice on him.

The FO is adding guys that sack the QB, cause turnovers or score TDs from the WR position to a team that lost a lot of close games with 2nd half leads/tie scores in 2014 by about 1 big play. It's a least a nice start while our front office has also added draft volumes to the 2016 and 2017 drafts.

Tim Conway may not be funny.

The Cavs didn't have near the bench that the warriors had...

but the Cavs played smarter and more disciplined.

The Browns, this year, will be playing smarter and more disciplined,

with a smarter and more disciplined FO and coaching staff.

and like Mr. Flugels mentioned, the Browns went all in to fix that wr problem that

other fo's and coaches ignored. For the first time since '99, I see it coming together

like it hasn't before.

I see the map, I see we are on our trail, I'm GOOD !

...don't have to get to the end of the trail to know I'm on it, that's all.

@miktoxic said:

Nothing wrong with being skeptical after all we've been through over the years Mik. Just like there isn't anything wrong with people wanting to put a game face on for the upcoming season. You made some really good points above.

That said, if a skeptic starts calling our fans Fucktards and idiots - it's disrespectful so some people refuse to tolerate it in a place we're all supposed to be sporting the common bond of the Browns. Some skeptics like yourself, are more or less trying to caution people it's better to get pleasantly surprised than to set yourself up for disappointment ahead with history supporting your point. We have a good blend of glass half full and half empty in here that can make for good discussions.

IMO, I see people blaming our new FO already for sins of the FOs here in the past - like complaining they didn't draft any play makers. This FO targeted guys that are productive in important areas that need a lot of help - instead of hoping they can teach a Greg Little they drafted way too high how to catch at the professional level. When we have brought talented guys here in the past, they didn't always prioritize football like Potsie Gordon. Just to validate some of the productive play makers they targeted at the college level, some of our new edge rushers scored really well in the Indy assessments measuring explosion. On top of all that, a lot of our 2015 draftees had reputations for great work ethics. This seems way more detailed than some of our previous front offices. Why would this be important? Well, the wrong time to learn Justin Gilbert doesn't like to work hard or tackle people shouldn't be after we drafted him in the top 10. I got the feeling this FO not only went much deeper in research but it had clear cut objectives previously MIA. For example, identifying how important it is to compete at WR and edge rusher followed by giddy up and get after it.

Just out of curiosity, why is the guy that led college football in sacks while forcing 6 fumbles way less of a play maker than Bosa is? He didn't wear Ohio State colors? We just drafted the top 2 guys at sacking the QB. The guy who was #2 was the Big 12 Defensive Player of the Year. Bosa's greatness generated 1 suspension, 1 disqualification and 5 sacks plus countless excuses that he was the only edge rusher that ever got chipped by a TE while dealing with an offensive tackle plus dealing with a RB at times. Because he went to Ohio State - this version of Reggie White deserves excuses nobody else does? Our FO didn't just watch Ohio State.

When Cleveland traded up to draft the alleged sure thing at RB out of Alabama at #3 overall, every network and analyst praised Cleveland for drafting this play maker at RB we so desperately needed allegedly. All the mock drafts adored the guy before hindsight 20/20. Then again, the mock drafts didn't exactly prioritize guys like: Tom Brady, Russell Wilson, Antonio Brown, Victor Cruz, Julian Edelman to name a few of countless play makers really helping NFL teams today.

What do fans know about Wentz that makes Cleveland's FO so dumb for trading back and adding picks instead? For that matter, how do these same critics know our FO wasn't more interested in Goff? Supply and demand doesn't always work like people think it does. For example, if Peyton Manning goes at #1 does this mean Ryan Leaf at #2 is just about as good? If Drew Bledsoe goes at #1 - is Rick Mirer just as good as the very next QB? If so, these critics ought to be ecstatic that the QB (RG3) who went #2 after Luck went #1 is now a Cleveland Brown instead of bellyaching we didn't look to a small school in Fargo for our football messiah at QB. Why is the Mock Draft's forgotten man (Russell Wilson) the only QB of his draft to start in 2 Superbowl appearances if all the answers only reside in the top 2 rated QBs of a draft?

The year we DID have the pick of the litter (Tim Couch) - we were choosing between him and Akili Smith while it was Donovan McNabb from the Veer Option Offense at SU that went to the team coming off the worst NFL record in 1998. Guess what QB did best on those bad teams with the top 3 choices? McNabb. 2 of them never made 1 Pro Bowl or started in 1 playoff game. The funny thing was a lot of Cleveland fans were pumped we got our guy while Philly fans booed they didn't get their play maker Ricky Williams. Turns out Philly frequented the playoffs from 2000-2010 with 5 Conference Championship appearances and 1 SB while Ricky took a marijuana sabbatical from football.

Shifting gears, what college WR scored more than the 20 TDs Corey Coleman scored in 2015? What part of that slam dunks this guys isn't a play maker at all? Unlike Farmer, this FO looks like they feel the WR position is a very important part of competing in a passing era. You better believe some us are going to feel refreshed about that. They also drafted other productive WRs to help out one of the weakest WR Corps in 2015. They're also not waiting on the 12th of Never for Potsie Gordon to GET it.

And if somebody like Scooby Wright was a Defensive Player of the Year in his conference - is that even possible for a guy with absolutely no big play ability? This guy had over 14 sacks that year and forced 6 fumbles. Aren't we begging for this type of make it happen especially when we're in all those close games with 2nd half leads disappearing in 2014?

You're right that it may not all unfold immediately. Hind sight 20/20 says Tom Brady might have been the best pick ever especially where he was found. He only dressed for about 1 or 2 games as a rookie before a lacerated kidney of Drew Bledsoe opened the door for a guy not 1 mock draft in this country saw coming...

The Cavaliers who never won a Title and frequently experienced post season heart break as well as long term droughts from winning finally celebrated the 12th of Never with over a million fans at the parade and millions more that enjoyed what shook out a couple days earlier. If that doesn't remind change is possible - nothing can. The Browns are a much more storied franchise that once competed in 10 consecutive Pro Football Championships that ignited countless family traditions often intertwining 3 different generations around the franchise with 8 Championships to its name. This hasn't always gone the way I wanted it to obviously, but I have an unconditional game face every week and get excited about every season ahead. I'm not here to pretend I'm Football's Nostradamus - I'm here to shoot the shit with the greatest fans on the planet like yourself about our team.

@miktoxic said:

thanks chris! i hear ya. just the pre-TC doubts as i peruse this roster.

this team needs a leader. a big time star to take this team under his wing and keep everyone in check and have them focus on their job and winning.

sorta like a lebron.

If they play out this year and realize they don't have that guy, they have the ammo to move up and get that sort of player in the next draft. This is a multi year rebuild thus why Sashi piled up future picks in this last draft.

As Chris said the team was top heavy with elite talent at positions that don't immediately convert into wins.

If Hue goes through games getting out coached and players half assing it then I will firmly be in the skeptic camp in a hurry.

this team needs a leader. a big time star to take this team under his wing and keep everyone in check and have them focus on their job and winning.

sorta like a lebron.

@jiggins7919 said:

Interesting! Some good points.

I wouldn't worry too much about Potsie Gordon if Cleveland cuts him. Our record has never been better because of him. We flat-lined in 2014 when he returned to the pleasant surprise of a 6-4 in progress. His apologists blame everyone but Potsie and it can get as outrageous as those ruthless popcorn vendors yelling too loud for him to concentrate and other ridiculous theories avoiding giving Potsie any accountability whatsoever. He contributed 0 TDs after telling us we were going to see the best version of Potsie we had ever seen. Not knowing the playbook is a reflection of how much this guy cared. Taking plays off is also a reflection of this. All this time I've heard we can't afford to get rid of Mr Wonderful, we had to have Travis Benjamin lead our WR Corps in TDs, yards per catch and in 2015 - receiving yards. This is a guy who's ceiling in is a #2 or a #3 so yeah, the subconscious planning around Potsie is our #1 WR impacts what's left when dirty urine keeps him from answering the bell. He has another dirty urine pending further discipline at this time. Any surprise considering who he buddies up with? Before Manziel, there was the guy with a big bag of weed in Josh's car if it was ever even that guy's weed.

In 2012 we were 5-11. In his dream season of 2013 when he was electrifying junk time, we only won 4 games. When he's NOT the primary receiver - he makes it pretty obvious which works against the notion his matchup should help his teammates. Forget Randy Moss comparisons because we didn't have Jake Reed and Cris Carter also lining up in formation. Our WRs were a lot more needy although they seemed to be a lot more productive the first 10 games than they were in the last 6 weeks. Coincidence?

We also probably wanted some players that fit the new staff's system - Coleman, Ogbah and Nassib spring to mind - and so we got rid of people like Hartline & Starks, guys who maybe had something at some point but are way past that point.

So sure, some heavy sense of realism - that this is a 3-13 team that lost a few of its better players in free agency; that even doubling that win total would be a big step forward and yet still result in a double-digit loss season - is absolutely fine. But you can also be optimistic that we're not going to see players unprepared, uncommitted, and out-coached under the new staff, and that with another draft or two we could really be on to something. And that's what being a browns fan is all about, every year

skeptical? me? naw. i mean why would a browns fan be skeptical? since the rebirth in '99 with 7 regime changes and only one playoff appearance, hell the fans should just line up and swallow whatever crap they're slingin. guess i have a much more refined palette.

there's nothing wrong with loving some of these draft picks. heck i think a couple could contribute big time right out of the gate. but to think cuz we landed more than a dozen players makes for some type of draft hoo haw is crazy. the old excuse 'well, they've got to build the foundation of the team'........ excuse me? build the foundation for the team? you mean to tell me that this professional football team had no players on the team last year? or the year before? because i coulda swore i watched a bunch of games on tv last year and they all included a team called the cleveland browns. now are you saying those players sucked and the new ones are going to replace the old sucky ones and make the foundation stronger? ok. time will tell. but i'm not taking that bet.

OR

are you saying that the players from past regimes are not the players the new coach and regime want to play in their system? now that i'll believe a lot faster than all the other players sucked. therein lies this fresh debate. so you're saying that this new regime is better than the past 7? cuz i can go down a roster of any other team in the nfl and find comparable/if not better players on the 'foundation' list of the browns. most players on a 'foundation' list have won awards and were considered 'somebody' throughout their career before being drafted. it's what they have done or failed to do since is how they'll be remembered. and if i'm not mistaken someone in those other team's regimes are doing the same job as the people in ours, just maybe better or worse. thing is there's no way of knowing just yet. so i'll choose to be skeptical cuz i've seen and heard it all before. i've watched a lot of guys on here hitch their wagons to 'saviours' and 'hacks' before and go down the shitter spinning counter-clockwise just like all the rest.

grab onto your life preserver. or at least know where it's at.

oh and VK is right. without the stud/star players, this org. will never turn around. shoulda drafted wentz.

@unsympathetic said:

NBA teams need more than just one option - and Kyrie was the #1 before LBJ came back. Kyrie has been a legit all-star from day1, 2 years before LBJ returned.

browns don't have a kyrie, let alone a kevin love.........or a mosgov for that matter. lol.

@flugel said:

NBA teams need more than just one option - and Kyrie was the #1 before LBJ came back. Kyrie has been a legit all-star from day1, 2 years before LBJ returned.

Back to reality: I'm most excited about seeing Pryor starting at WR.

I also believe people should be more encouraged with our RB's. The RB position is basically the ONLY area where we didn't use one of our 14 draft picks to upgrade, and that speaks volumes because Hue Jackson likes to run the ball. If we look at what Cincy liked to do, they ran the ball with Hill and also with Gio. Two guys with two different skill sets, and very similar to the two guys we have on OUR TEAM. Don't get me wrong, I'm NOT saying that Crowell and Duke are as good as Hill and Gio, but they perform similar roles. Hue has mentioned many times that he believes our RB's have what it takes to carry our offense.

Try and remember our coaches didn't know what they were doing last year. We now have offensive coaches who have enjoyed success in the NFL, and have way more experience than the guys we had last year. Our players will be placed in situations that help them excel more often than last year, and we're going to see a dramatic change in how often we actually run the ball. (assuming we aren't down 20 points at halftime)

I'd love to tell you that Gordon is coming back, but even if he's reinstated, I'm not so sure our Browns take the guy back. We seem to really be distancing ourselves from players with "issues", and that's bad news for Gordon and Armonty Bryant. The thing is...if Gordon IS reinstated, I don't see the benefit of cutting him. I could totally see the Ravens snatching him up and using him to keep kicking the crap out of us. Maybe the only benefit of cutting him is finally being free of any drama inducing players...but is that enough?

As I've said before, our main issue on offensive (besides the lack of proven playmakers) is our lack of depth. I truly believe that we're going to start the season out with a couple of W's that people didn't expect, but as the injuries mount, we'll fade away.

Higgins

How will the new offensive scheme fit our line and running game?

Power run game, hopefully our OL is built to match

What position do you feel is our strength?

Left side of OL - Thomas/Bitonio. Yay.

What position concerns you most?

QB, obviously.

What players excite you heading into 2016?

Coleman, Johnson

Are there any guys you've grown stale with?

Crowell, Hawkins

What 1 guy do you think brings the most sudden impact - rookie or FA? And why?

Coleman - think he takes punt returns and runs with them (trololol) and the confidence spills over in to the receiving game, and since he's our defacto #1, he gets a lot of reps.

What guy, who is already here, do you expect to play far better than he did in 2015? And, is he the only one?

Erving. But 'much better' doesn't necessarily mean adequate.

VesnaKociper said:

Hold on, you were bragging about your NE Patriots taking their play makers or Lebron James in round 1. Is that where they found Tom Brady? What about Gronkowski? How about Edelman? Those are the 3 guys they count on most to outscore everybody. And how many Zeke Elliotts have they drafted at RB in round 1 in recent years?

Are you really going to tell our audience how proud of Bill Belichick you were when he drafted Craig Powell and Touchdown-Free Tommy Vardell in upper halves of round 1? Or, when we got to witness all the football follies from Todd Philcox? If anything, Belichick learned in Cleveland a lot can go wrong when you toss all your marbles into 1 guy in round 1 so he mastered the art of trading back for more picks in NE. He drafts bad QBs too - ever hear of Ryan Mallett? We can get him today for a Walmart Cola and a stale bag of potato chips.

Again, this front office increased our 2016 draft volume to 14 and they added picks to the 2017 draft (including another one in round 1) If a guy can score 20 TDs and win an award as the best WR in college football - why does that strike you as not a play maker? 2) If a guy can lead the country with 15.5 sacks, 19.5 tackles for losses and force 6 fumbles - how is that not a play maker?

3) If a guy can earn Defensive Player of the year in the Pac 12 for 14.5 sacks, 6 forced fumbles and countless tackles for losses - how is that not a play maker? Not bad for a late 7th round pick eh?

You've conditioned yourself to tell others about your bellyache so much that you're now doing it before the ache. This is starting to sound like a Billy Ray Cyrus Achey-Breaky video gone wrong...

http://www.patriots.com/video/2016/02/19/2016-draft-prospects-rashard-higgins-wr-colorado-state

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=espn:15413975

http://espn.go.com/blog/cleveland-browns/post/_/id/18942/browns-end-the-era-of-the-unimportant-receiver

He DID however lack in time management.

He's gone though. There's no room for him.

Conner Shaw? I too was impressed with his college completion percentage and lack of INT's (lotta fumbles though as I recall) but he seemed rather ordinary to me. I think his fate is tied to McCown's.

...would be nice if a TE arose to compliment Barnidge...but he needs to be able to block too.

@flugel said:

So why quit now. The Cavs ain't on & the Tribe already kicked some Tiger tail..

@miktoxic said:

What a clever detour so I'll re-post my point and question to you again: Only about 4 of the 11 draftees made it to see a Sunday afternoon game. Ronnie Lott, Eric Wright and Carlton Williamson all became starters in the secondary for a team about to begin a dynasty. Does that draft suck OR did they draft enough goodies to change the way SF played defense moving forward?

The year Ronnie Lott was drafted - he was coming off an All American season. Nostradamus wasn't available at the time of the pick to let us know if he was a lock for the NFL Hall of Fame or not before NFL down #1. It looked like a very good pick especially if you saw the highlights and the productivity behind the reasons he earned All American honors.

Speaking of Lott's promising college football accomplishments in terms of what they projected ahead, we drafted some similar college football resumes:

1) a guy who made All American as well as being named Pac 12 Player of the Year with 14.5 sacks and 6 forced fumbles plus winning the Bednarik, Lombardi and Nagurski Awards in 2014 (Scooby Wright).

2) a guy that led the nation in sacks with 15.5, 6 forced fumbles and 19.5 tackles for loss (Carl Nassib)

3) a Big 12 Defensive player of the Year and All American (Emmanuel Ogbah),

4) a 2 time All American and 2 time Big 12 Offensive Linemen of the year (Spencer Drango),

5) a guy that made All American and won the Biletnikoff Award as the best WR in college football after scoring 20 TDs in his final season at Baylor (Corey Coleman)

You don't want any of these guys to have a chance? Let's just cut em now Mik?

@tour2ma said:

Clear weakness: QB group

When your top performer is at the end of his career.... The more I think about it, the more likely it seems that McC is around to be traded to the team suffering the greatest QB loss during TC.

Clear strength: ???

Just can't squint that hard...

Most promise: WR group

Even four random draftees would win for this group and I think we did a lot better than random.

Least promising: RB group

I like Crow and think the swap to a power gap scheme will help him, but...

- the line is a question mark...

- TE blocking is a question mark... and

- FB???

That's three strikes.

@flugel said:

pfft,

you're saying there's a ronnie lott amongst our draftees?

can you point him out to me pleez?

@tour2ma said:

Get out of my head.. QB--The more I hear about Fitz turning down 12M with Jets. The more I think JMC fits their cap situation & not Fitz. Better OL for now too? When Josh pushed to name starter, full indication was Josh knows he's got few years to play & ain't sitting behind anybody. Maybe he does want out.. WR--better than random-spot on..RB/OL--Not sure if you caught the new article from same writer at Fanside? But either writer or Hal Hunter is speaking crazy stuff again on OL personnel imo. Proof shall be in the pudding

@tour2ma said:

I remember the day we signed Barnidge - I read his greatest addition here would be blocking. And then I witnessed what kind of Receiver he became in 2015.

Like that video I shared of the Bitonio press conference in the Drango thread - the offense becomes a product of the OC's philosophical agenda. Bitonio hinted they tried to adapt to a change from run first to pass first mentality. That's gonna change what you get out of your TEs as exemplified by Barnidge.