@the-gipper said:

This might be somewhat relevant considering where Ray Horton got most of his training and ideologies as a coach under Dick LeBeau - how many 5 techniques from Pittsburgh made that list? Not even Brett Keisel? Doesn't surprise me. When LeBeau was there - the OLBs like James Harrison, LaMarr Woodley, Joey Porter, Jason Gildon, Kevin Greene, Greg Lloyd, Chad Brown usually were the designated pass rushers. Sometimes the 5 techniques would get a nice little biscuit upfield if Pittsburgh slanted to the wide side of the field or strength of formation.

Last time here, Horton said he wanted to use hybrid fronts but an injury volume up front had him using 3 man fronts most of the time while kicking Taylor and Rubin out of inside comfort zones to 5 techniques neither seemed well wired for. This time, our personnel seems best suited for 4 man fronts especially with our best 5 technique out for the year. It'll be interesting to see what he does with our Defense.

Zombo said:

Oh. Oh. Harvard guys got a eye on a Dukie..Don't mind this addition at all with Devalve questionable. With coach David Cutcliff at Duke, you don't block, you don't play. This is another good move along with Nick Hayden..

TE David Reeves signed.

http://www.neosportsinsiders.com/cleveland-browns-place-desmond-bryant-nfi-sign-te-david-reeves/

Saying "This DE goes to 11, see, and so I shall call him Rover" doesn't make it not a 5-2..

You've got to wonder how you could have 5-2 personnel on the field and still not shut down the run. Oh Cleveland.

@mudfly said:

Right....Id say, now more than ever, we have personnel that best fits a 4-3......we have a ton of 4-3 DE's we are trying to morph into OLB's.....and we have a wealth of interior DT's, we are using as DE's and we have a shortage of versatile LB's, which we are spinning our wheels on with guys like Kruger, Bryant & Mingo.....so, why force ALL these guys to play out of position????......

Id use a 4 man front, something like.........A. Bryant...Shelton...Meder...ogbah.....backed by Kirksey...Davis and Orchard......

And back them up with a rotation of...........Nassib....Hughes...Cooper...Kruger....backed by Schobert..Wright....Mingo.....

Might as well sprinkle in some 5-2 sets while we're at it...

@gumby73 said:

My guess it's Campbell at SS, with an open battle between Poyer and Moore at FS.

@tiamat63 said:

Check out the SS & FS plan. 8 man battle, maybe we don't miss Whitner? Last depth chart I got was FS-Poyer,R.Moore,Don Jones,E. Patterson & AJ Stamps..SS-Campbell, Tim Scott & D. Kindred..I like tall trees that lay some wood..

@tiamat63 said:

Great! Keep an eye on our defensive alignments por favor.

@texasag1969 said:

I'll be there for the 31st.

It would be nice to get reports back on whether we are seeing more of the 4-3 like most of us feel fits best for our current players.

@gftchris said:

Yeah....I agree that Orchard would be really nice at DE, but with this group, he's likely to be our best OLB by a mile(at least in my mind). Id rather have him on the field with some of the other pass rushers..

And yes, Id like "that"....

And agree that Kirksey and Mingo should be the other OLBs....with a 4-3, I think Mingo would have a better chance shooting gaps and flashing around "occupied" OL......and is an ideal coverage backer....

@flugel said:

If memory serves me right, we used a 4 man front back then where your OLB isn't the designated pass rusher of the alignment. Since it was 15 years ago - let me look it up and get some clarity:

Kenard Lang was a Washington Redskin in 2001.

Courtney Brown started 5 games at DE prior to IR.

Tyrone Rogers started 10 games at DE.

Greg Spires started 4 games at DE.

Orpheus Roye played mostly DT in his 10 starts but occasionally kicked out to DE.

Keith McKenzie started 6 games at DE.

Jamir Miller is listed at DE/LB so I'm going on summer school arithmetic and an old bastard's memory that he played OLB the first 5 games and played out of a 3 point stance the last 11 games.

Here's the stats, starts and positions listed:

No. Player Age Pos G GS Int Yds TD Lng PD FF Fmb FR Yds TD Sk Tkl Ast Sfty

95 Jamir Miller*+ 28 de/LB 16 16 1 0 0 0 14 4 0 0 0 0 13.0 81 18

57 Dwayne Rudd 25 LB 16 16 1 0 0 0 6 1 0 0 0 0 0.5 72 27

24 Corey Fuller 30 LCB 16 16 3 82 1 49 21 2 0 1 0 0 70 15

20 Earl Little 28 SS 16 16 5 33 0 15 9 1 0 0 0 0 1.0 64 17

33 Daylon McCutcheon 25 RCB 16 15 4 62 1 32 11 2 0 0 0 0 2.0 65 6

52 Brant Boyer 30 mlb 16 2 2 12 0 8 4 60 19

58 Wali Rainer 24 MLB 14 13 0 0 0 0 4 3 0 1 0 0 1.0 53 29

94 Gerard Warren 23 LDT 15 15 0 0 0 0 6 5.0 48 13

23 Devin Bush 28 fs 16 7 2 62 1 43 4 1 0 1 0 0 43 19

37 Anthony Henry 25 db/rcb 16 2 10 177 1 97 17 44 10

43 Percy Ellsworth 27 FS 11 9 1 19 0 19 4 1.0 39 8

78 Tyrone Rogers 27 DE 16 10 0 0 0 0 5 1 0 0 0 0 6.0 30 9

74 Mark Smith 27 rdt 16 11 0 0 0 0 6 0 0 1 0 0 2.0 29 13

96 Greg Spires 27 de 16 4 0 0 0 0 1 2 0 1 0 0 4.0 22 7

99 Orpheus Roye 28 de/ldt/rdt 12 10 1 0 0 0 4 18 7 1

92 Courtney Brown 23 de 5 5 0 0 0 0 4 2 0 2 25 1 4.5 14 7

31 Raymond Jackson 28 15 0 3 52 0 52 3 15 2

90 Keith McKenzie 28 de 7 6 0 0 0 0 5 3.0 12 2

47 Scott Frost 26 12 0 0 0 1 0 0 11 3

51 Lenoy Jones 27 mlb 7 1 10 6

55 Anthony Denman 22 11 0 10 4

21 Marquis Smith 26 14 2 0 0 0 0 1 9 2

70 Alvin McKinley 23 7 0 6 6

36 Chris Akins 25 4 0 5 0

So Lang didn't get there until 2002 ... I liked him.

Guess I was thinking of McKenzie.

When they were all healthy at the beginning of the year they were pretty bad ass. That heartbreaking loss to the Bears where they scored 20 points in 2 seconds ... Our DL was dominating that game up to that point.

Z

@flugel said:

Right....Id say, now more than ever, we have personnel that best fits a 4-3......we have a ton of 4-3 DE's we are trying to morph into OLB's.....and we have a wealth of interior DT's, we are using as DE's and we have a shortage of versatile LB's, which we are spinning our wheels on with guys like Kruger, Bryant & Mingo.....so, why force ALL these guys to play out of position????......

Id use a 4 man front, something like.........A. Bryant...Shelton...Meder...ogbah.....backed by Kirksey...Davis and Orchard......

And back them up with a rotation of...........Nassib....Hughes...Cooper...Kruger....backed by Schobert..Wright....Mingo.....

And, looking at this....even with only 3, you can still see the weakness of LB and the strength on DL.....

But the Browns will jam those DE's into the OLB position(diminishing their skills) and creating situations where our DE's turned OLB's cannot make the play, cover the TE or slot, catch the RB in the flat, etc.....

Simply put...use what you got.....and adjust the system to the talent. So far, that aint happening(with Horton or Pettine)....

@gumby73 said:

Mud & Flug you both bring up great points. Now with Des out, Why do we continue the Ogbah move to LB? His career was build at DE.. If we line 3. I like Hughes,Shelton & Ogbah. With not additions we go to camp with Meder & Lawrence Staple (PS maybe, but a run stuffier) both at 320 will rotate Shelton at nose. Last updated depth chart I have seen is RDE-Hughes,Ogbah & Dylan Wynn. LDE-X.Cooper, C. Nassib & Kyle Rose. ROLB- Orchard, A. Bryant, Jackson Jeffcoat & Cam Johnson. RILB-Dmario Davis, Carder & Scooby. LOLB- Kruger, Mingo & Schobert. RILB- Kirksey, Tuggle & D. Alexander. Somehow Ogbah needs to stay home at DE R or L imo..

And, if he stays, lets get A. Bryant back to DE.....and, if we MUST keep him, do the same with Kruger.....these 2 aint OLB's. Point blank.

@texasag1969 said:

Sometimes it's more fun to feign ignorance...

@gumby73 said:

Hell Billy Wynn is still a FA.

Trimmed down, he'd be fine by me...

@canton-mike said:

You and Zombo share this point and it's a really good one IMO.

Way back in 2001, our 1st overall pick from 2000 (Courtney Brown) had 5 sacks in his first 5 games before he suffered a season ending injury. Seemed like we were looking at improbability of replacing him with anyone decent especially knowing we only won 3 games the year before. As fate would have, we begin to see how Jamir Miller could play from a 3 point stance in lieu of the 2 point stance we were accustomed to seeing in 1999 and 2000. He finished the year with 13 sacks while we improved to 7 wins in spite of losing 2 OTs games.

1 year later (2002) when it seemed like the defense was going to be built around Jamir's Pro Bowl pass rush skills, we lost him to a career ending injury in our first preseason game. Despite the bad news, we went on to win 9 games and make the playoffs the only time since we've had our team back.

That's why they play the games...

Zombo said:

If memory serves me right, we used a 4 man front back then where your OLB isn't the designated pass rusher of the alignment. Since it was 15 years ago - let me look it up and get some clarity:

Kenard Lang was a Washington Redskin in 2001.

Courtney Brown started 5 games at DE prior to IR.

Tyrone Rogers started 10 games at DE.

Greg Spires started 4 games at DE.

Orpheus Roye played mostly DT in his 10 starts but occasionally kicked out to DE.

Keith McKenzie started 6 games at DE.

Jamir Miller is listed at DE/LB so I'm going on summer school arithmetic and an old bastard's memory that he played OLB the first 5 games and played out of a 3 point stance the last 11 games.

Here's the stats, starts and positions listed:

No. Player Age Pos G GS Int Yds TD Lng PD FF Fmb FR Yds TD Sk Tkl Ast Sfty

95 Jamir Miller*+ 28 de/LB 16 16 1 0 0 0 14 4 0 0 0 0 13.0 81 18

57 Dwayne Rudd 25 LB 16 16 1 0 0 0 6 1 0 0 0 0 0.5 72 27

24 Corey Fuller 30 LCB 16 16 3 82 1 49 21 2 0 1 0 0 70 15

20 Earl Little 28 SS 16 16 5 33 0 15 9 1 0 0 0 0 1.0 64 17

33 Daylon McCutcheon 25 RCB 16 15 4 62 1 32 11 2 0 0 0 0 2.0 65 6

52 Brant Boyer 30 mlb 16 2 2 12 0 8 4 60 19

58 Wali Rainer 24 MLB 14 13 0 0 0 0 4 3 0 1 0 0 1.0 53 29

94 Gerard Warren 23 LDT 15 15 0 0 0 0 6 5.0 48 13

23 Devin Bush 28 fs 16 7 2 62 1 43 4 1 0 1 0 0 43 19

37 Anthony Henry 25 db/rcb 16 2 10 177 1 97 17 44 10

43 Percy Ellsworth 27 FS 11 9 1 19 0 19 4 1.0 39 8

78 Tyrone Rogers 27 DE 16 10 0 0 0 0 5 1 0 0 0 0 6.0 30 9

74 Mark Smith 27 rdt 16 11 0 0 0 0 6 0 0 1 0 0 2.0 29 13

96 Greg Spires 27 de 16 4 0 0 0 0 1 2 0 1 0 0 4.0 22 7

99 Orpheus Roye 28 de/ldt/rdt 12 10 1 0 0 0 4 18 7 1

92 Courtney Brown 23 de 5 5 0 0 0 0 4 2 0 2 25 1 4.5 14 7

31 Raymond Jackson 28 15 0 3 52 0 52 3 15 2

90 Keith McKenzie 28 de 7 6 0 0 0 0 5 3.0 12 2

47 Scott Frost 26 12 0 0 0 1 0 0 11 3

51 Lenoy Jones 27 mlb 7 1 10 6

55 Anthony Denman 22 11 0 10 4

21 Marquis Smith 26 14 2 0 0 0 0 1 9 2

70 Alvin McKinley 23 7 0 6 6

36 Chris Akins 25 4 0 5 0

Z

@clevfan4life said:

In 1999 and 2000, yes.

In 2001 when Courtney Brown went on IR after week 5, Jamir played the next 11 games at his spot and added 13 sacks earning himself a Pro Bowl at DE.

@flugel said:

was jamir not the 4-3 olb'er?

@mudfly said:

I hope not Mud.

Cooper was a rookie so there was a reluctance to start that ahead of our highest paid veteran (D. Bryant) who was well liked by the DC. Orchard didn't start at his OLB position; but once he got a chance to get more reps later on in our train-wreck - he closed the season pretty well IMO. I don't think Cooper and Orchard on a limited rep count was a case of they sucked or there's no chance at upside ahead. It was more of a perception of who was ready to play faster both mentally and physically.

If memory serves me right, John Hughes played NT in college at Cincy because he was good at 2 gap football there. I don't know if he ever had the foot speed to play DE. In fact, we also also auditioned guys like Phil Taylor and Ahtyba Rubin out at DE as recently as 2013 or 2014 (both guys that played DT/NT inside in college d/t to a lack of footspeed to play DE). I think we'd appreciate Hughes' 2 gap ability/integrity better inside where his boundary is far smaller than all the way to the sidelines.

Jamie Meder seemed like a pleasant surprise to me when he got reps while Randy Starks was here for his experience and hopes of bringing leadership which he failed at.

Horton was fond of hybrid fronts when he arrived here the first time. I think injuries up front limited how many down linemen he went with as well as taking guys out of their comfort zones to play in unfamiliar spaces. If we can be more fortunate with injuries - I could see us having some luck with 4 man fronts. That means our guys on the edge don't have to waste time pondering do I rush or drop challenging their explosion out of snap and playing fast immediately there after. Inside, Hughes can play more effective with 2 gap in a smaller space while teaming with Shelton or Meder.

As I said a couple posts ago, I'm not a big fan of our marriage to the 5 techniques over the years. I'd at least like to see it less frequently. I think we have the personnel to hurry a passer more easily out of a 4 man front than we would out of a 3 man fronts we've gagged on. I don't want our rookie edge rushers to feel like the comedian's puppy named Stay. Paralysis from over-analysis vrs sic em? I gots to go with sic em.

@tour2ma said:

Actually I was referring to this part of your post, "Should force us more to 4-3 looks since we are now one starter thinner with 3-4 DEs..."

He would be the one worth making the change to 4-3 permanent. Opportunity!

Hate to say it, but teams are gonna continue to run right through this group like swiss cheese.....and their QB's will have all day Sunday and part of Monday to throw the ball.....