^ Well profootballfocus says that Hall was really good for a long time. He also received a really big second contract which teams don't give to average players. So I'm right and your wrong.

So your argument is that there is only one way to evaluate whether a player is good. Was he ever a pro bowler?

No, that is not the only way.....but it is a factor. See below. Career productivity is more of a factor.

According to this line of thinking, Fred Taylor was "average at best" Joey Galloway was "average at best" And Vince Young who completed 51% of his passes, threw more INTs than TDs and had a 66 passer rating in 2006 was great because he was selected by "players and coaches" to go to the pro bowl? Great argument Gipper.

That is your fairyland argument, it is not mine. I look at a variety of factors. Making a Pro Bowl is a factor when a person's career is otherwise un-notable...or is shortened somehow. Taylor and Galloway would have likely been some of the best producing performers at their positions in their careers. Taylor has a 110 Career Production Average. Galloway a 99. OUtstanding careers.

Leon Hall has a 56....about half what the other players you mention have. A very average career number for how long he played.

Average career production numbers. No Pro Bowls.....tells me that he was average and his peers thought the same of him.

Leon Hall was average.

Like the Mike Reid/Eric Green things. They had low production numbers because of a shorter careers, but were thought of enough by their peers and the people that evaluate talent to have given them two "All Star Game" appearances each, at least.

"All Star Game" appearances is an important factor when looking at a baseball player. The same is true for a football player.

I acquiesced on Green and Reid. Not so on Hall. A decent player perhaps. Not a huge talent comparatively.

Hall has been average at best...except perhaps for one year. Haden had a bad year last year due to injuries.

You think you know more than the players of the NFL, the coaches of the NFL, the GMs of the NFL...who have put Joe Haden into the Pro Bowl....and who have never seen fit to put Hall into the Pro Bowl.

Hall: an average NFL player. Serviceable, yes. Probably better than a lot of guys the Browns have had.....but not a plus player.

I wonder WHY Gilbert even attempts to play...he shows the energy & passion of a "slug". Neither he nor Mingo show any instincts.

Mike

Justin Gilbert has just officially crossed into "bust" territory last night in my opinion.

There are several posters on this board that placed his shortcomings on the previous coaching staff.

This guy can't tackle, or cover a receiver and there's no way in hell Hue and company will be able to "coach him up".

I also agree with Zombo, it's time to part ways with Mingo.

The pro bowl is really about the worst way to evaluate players. It's not really worth discussing if you are sold on this idea that only players that make pro bowls are good. Vince Young made 2 pro bowls, was he a plus player? Joey Galloway never made the pro bowl. Fred Taylor never made a pro bowl. Marques Colston never made a pro bowl. All great players.

Haden was good early in his career but hasn't been good since 2013. Hall has always been good even if he hasn't made pro bowls.

Justin Gilbert has just officially crossed into "bust" territory last night in my opinion.

There are several posters on this board that placed his shortcomings on the previous coaching staff.

This guy can't tackle, or cover a receiver and there's no way in hell Hue and company will be able to "coach him up".

I also agree with Zombo, it's time to part ways with Mingo.

Leon Hall a borderline player? That is just silly. He was a top-10 CB for a long time. He has certainly had a better career than Joe Haden who was listed as a "plus player."

Levi Jones and Brian Simmons were also very good players.

Not that PFF is the be all end all, but I'll take their word over evaluating players based on how many pro bowls they made.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/five-years-of-pff-grades-top-10-cornerbacks/

Many in here believe Pryor is a Pro Bowl WR this season, not the best measuring stick. I guess 8,000 yards is pretty solid over a 13 year career and he probably was a bit underutilized. Yeah I'm probably off on that one.

Leon Hall a borderline player? That is just silly. He was a top-10 CB for a long time. He has certainly had a better career than Joe Haden who was listed as a "plus player."

I am not buying that at all....and, again, borderline doesn't mean borderline bust.

Leon Hall has played for 9 years...and has not made a single Pro Bowl. I think you have to make some Pro Bowls to be considered a plus player.

Joe Haden has only played 6 years and made several Pro Bowls.

Joe is a Pro Bowl player, Hall is not.

Levi Jones and Brian Simmons were also very good players.

I would have to do more research on them....or actually, you need to produce evidence of your opinion before I revise my ranking.

But clearly you guys are freaked out over semantics with the term borderline. Like I said, I probably needed to break this down into the 4 categories that I had put above, instead of the original just 3 categories.

I don't think so....as for an overall career the guys you mention either didn't last long or didn't produce up to their draft position. They stay in the middle of the road category. And yes, a short career can lead to an "average" ranking. The one guy I thought about was Reid.....I know he was a good player, but he was only in the league 5-6 years. And, yes, an injury can cause someone to be a bust. As with Cook the same can be said for Kijana Carter. Unfortunate, yes, but they still get the bust grade as they just didn't have much of a career.

"bend but don't break Gipper"

I would want 8-10 years out of a guy like that to be a plus. (and he quit to play piano, not sing).

Mike Reid was excellent. 2 time All-Pro, 4 time all-AFC, retired to become a singer.

If you get five years from a guy and he excels at the top of the league for four of them, he's a plus.

Zombo