You're either trolling or an idiot. This is getting ridiculous. Your insisting the score of game means something here, and that I apparently don't think OSU had been better at football than Michigan, just seals it.

Well....even if I am the troll...you are still the idiot.

Do you even know what it is that you are arguing for or against?

Instead of floundering around like a fish in the bottom of a boat....stop and think and figure out what point of argument it is that you are trying to make.

When you figure out what you would like to be when you grow up. Let us know...and we will tell you if you have gotten there.

I can't deal with your ignorance any longer.

You have too much of your own to deal with.

You don't read past posts where I'm making a point about Bucannon.

I read them What did you want me to do, fawn over him? ....its just that you went into so many other directions you need a GPS to keep up with all the turns you make and all the side alleys you go down.

You think Michigan sucks academically.

See...you really are a fly with the wings pulled off. You make it all so absurdly simple to get your goat.

It is all getting too ridiculous. Your blatant OSU bias makes you incapable of having any reasonable conversation about Michigan. It's pathetic.

Why should we have any discussion about Michigan. I thought we concluded that discussion when we agreed that Michigan sucks. Or maybe you didn't agree...but it doesn't matter. (everyone knows it anyway)

I'm done with this for now. If someone else wants to discuss the Heisman, I'm down. I just cannot take your overwhelming ignorance any more.

What you mean is that you cannot take my overwhelming intellect, confidence, profuse knowledge in comparison. You can't take that I diminish you.

As for the Heisman....I am the one that started this Heisman watch thread. I have been putting info on here about all the candidates. You, on the other hand, wanted this thread to disintegrate into another of your Michigan babble threads by only focusing on that one longshot from your school.

The rest of us might actually like to discuss actual Heisman Trophy candidates, like Jackson/Watson/Barrett/Browning/Knight/ etc. etc. but we can't because you insist on interposing your views on some minor candidate simply because he goes to your school.

The score of the game last year in the context of this conversation literally means nothing.

I don't think you have a clue what the context of this conversation is.

You claim that I am OSU biased....and I say, certainly I am.....

But then I produce something objective....non-biased as it relates to these schools......the score of last year's game.....and you dismiss it as not being the context of this conversation.

It IS EXACTLY the subject of this, and many conversations involving you: Your inability to accept the fact that Ohio State is better than Michigan....and has been for some time.

The bolded part in red. THAT is exactly what the issue is. You base everything on your own anecdotal evidence. That means jack shit in a back and forth like this, especially when you don't even follow the team this player is on. The Engineering school thing is just the most blatant example of it, but you do this in literally every thread with a back and forth (and usually something Michigan related).

OK, we can just boil it down to a simple two word, objective statement: Michigan sucks (both football and academically)

"I'm old. I've been watching football forever. Therefore I am right.

It means I know more than you certainly. I do know more than you.

And even respecting the teams right now, this year....you likely don't know more than me. You just know what you think you know about Michigan. You have tunnel vision/rose...or maize piss colored glasses on when it comes to them.

I know someone that goes to that school, and he's a good kid, so that school is amazing.

In this respect I am comparing the product: You from Michigan, he from Akron. And I am firm in the regard that Akron has put out a better product than Michigan has...at least in this instance.

I don't like Michigan, and back in the 70s they were so so.

And here....you don't even fucking know your own history. Michigan was not so so in the 70s, they were pretty much great....probably the greatest they have ever been in their history. They were great, Ohio State was great. Bo was great, Woody was great. They battle like demons against each other and often were ranked 1-2...or at least both in the Top 5 in the Nation.

Therefore, Peppers isn't that great. I've been around a while so I am automatically right."

Here we go again......I am the one that thought Peppers WAS supposed to be a great player....worthy of a Top 3-5 draft spot. YOU are the one that has doused the flames of his alleged excellence by saying that his coverage skills are suspect.

So...I guess since I thought he could be a great player....and you thought he would not be so great then you say he will be a great player, I guess I shouldn't listen to a word you say....because you contradict yourself. Make up your mind.

Maybe Z should give you the nickname Schizotron. You act just like the other guy.

You just really don't get it.

I get that you are an idiot.

I think that's what I am coming to learn here.

You are learning that you are an idiot? Congrats to catching on to what we all have known for a long time.

You really don't understand why what you're saying has zero merit and means nothing.

I understand perfectly: You are an idiot with comprehension deficiencies. So, naturally intelligent matters mean nothing to you.

@mld-woody said:

You aren't the end all be all on th subject because of longevity and history. The fact you watched a Michigan game in the 70s means nothing in this argument.

Lets see: 2015 Final Score was like 42-13....THAT does mean something.

The fact you know a kid that went to Akron's engineering school doesn't make it a better school.

The fact that I know that you went to Michigan's engineering school does not make it a better school either.

OK, the only thing I can go on is by what I see. And the only thing that I have to go on on that subject is my interaction with each of you.....and lets just say this....if we take the small sample size of one kid from each school, so far, Michigan is sucking hind tit.

@mld-woody said:

Ugh

Interesting that is all you're concerned about, because you've been going on about a lot more in this thread. A thread about the Heisman...

Yes.....an award that a defensive player will not win. Nor do I think that a gimmicky player will win. A quarterback will win.

I gave an example of an NFL LB with a similar background. He's probably a safety, but it's not as far fetched as you're making it seem.

Who? Refresh my memory.

You aren't saying anything groundbreaking with the Safety and PR take. There might be some NFL OCs out there that would give him an offensive package or two though.

At the objection of the NFL teams DC. Put him where he will be playing in the pros. Safety and punt return.

Yes I am entertained by it. And yes it helps Michigan. Again I follow the team much more closely than you do. Ir definitely helps.

That post is a greatest hits of your bullshit.

You ain't seen shit. This doesn't even come close.

The bias isn't on my end.

Maybe not....but the stupid is on your end.

It's on yours. As an OSU fan. I say much less ridiculous things on here than some of the osilu fans here do.

I may be biased toward OSU....but it doesn't apply here....in talking about Peppers pro prospects. Look...I am fine with ex-Michigan players joining the Browns if they play well....that is all I want out them.

You aren't infinitely more times knowledgeable.

OK.....my knowledge vs. yours isn't infinitely more. There is a finite end to it. Let's just say that it is exponentionally larger.

Like past arguments, you have anecdotal evidence and evidence that's decades old. Look at past "debates",

Decades worth of evidence.....from decades ago to now.

like where you wanted to tell me Miami of Ohio is as good of a school as Michigan. I mean come on. I can throw all of these rankings at you and you'd just ignore them.

I don't know if I said Miami, Oh. I know I said Kenyon and Oberlin...and others and may have included Miami Oh. in there. And it is just an opinion. In many opinions....that may be the case.

But one thing we can say: Ohio State is better at football than Michigan, now. (It was not between like 1880 and 1920....I will give you that morsel)

I get that great Michigan football people are from Ohio. I'm from Ohio. I don't care. You bring this shit up all of the time and each time it means nothing.

It means that Ohio is Michigan's Daddy.

You aren't the end all be all on th subject because of longevity and history. The fact you watched a Michigan game in the 70s means nothing in this argument.

Lets see: 2015 Final Score was like 42-13....THAT does mean something.

The fact you know a kid that went to Akron's engineering school doesn't make it a better school.

The fact that I know that you went to Michigan's engineering school does not make it a better school either.

OK, the only thing I can go on is by what I see. And the only thing that I have to go on on that subject is my interaction with each of you.....and lets just say this....if we take the small sample size of one kid from each school, so far, Michigan is sucking hind tit.

Ugh

Interesting that is all you're concerned about, because you've been going on about a lot more in this thread. A thread about the Heisman...

Yes.....an award that a defensive player will not win. Nor do I think that a gimmicky player will win. A quarterback will win.

I gave an example of an NFL LB with a similar background. He's probably a safety, but it's not as far fetched as you're making it seem.

Who? Refresh my memory.

You aren't saying anything groundbreaking with the Safety and PR take. There might be some NFL OCs out there that would give him an offensive package or two though.

At the objection of the NFL teams DC. Put him where he will be playing in the pros. Safety and punt return.

Yes I am entertained by it. And yes it helps Michigan. Again I follow the team much more closely than you do. Ir definitely helps.

Yeah? That's what he has to do to be a high draft pick? I mean, the analysts disagree with you... but hey... you must know best.

"Play pattycake"? What are you talking about? Are we not allowed to utilize one of the best athletes in the country on offense?

If it makes you feel any better, I have some level of respect for your opinion. I have pretty much 0 respect for Gipper's opinion on issues like this beccause he has been repeatedly shown to not know what he is talking about in the past.

Again, he isn't playing a true DB role on defense. He is playing LB. And either way, nothing is diminishing. You're looking at box scores and have no idea what you're talking about. He didn't play the entire second half because there was no reason to. There really wasn't much to do in the 1st half either...

I'm sure part of Harbaugh wants to help Peppers in the Heisman. But at the same time using Peppers on offense is a legitimate game strategy that has worked well. It is a package that utilizes the talent we have on this team.

Refer back to my mentioning that he needs to be better at his defensive position than those other things if he wants to be a high draft choice in the NFL.

He needs to play safety and return punts. Not play pattycake on offense.

I'm agreeing with you. Merely pointing out my opinion aligning with yours in hopes that Woody is still lurking.

Gorsh, Mickey - please refer back to my mentioning that Peppers is better at non defensive things than he is being a complete defensive player.

I know that Harbaugh want to insert Peppers into the Heisman race by letting run the ball. But that is being gimmicky....while it seems that his main talent....that of a DB is diminishing. He had all of two tackles and not much else on defense (not that Rutgers gave them any sort of reason to play well.)

I think he's an above average athlete that doesn't have the instinct for deep coverage and can be a liability if you run right at him. Which isn't his fault given his size. However he's disruptive at the LOS especially in the screen, East-west running game and as a 5th man rushing/blitz. (Bucannon-esque) He's a man with hair on fire blowing up screens. However, I don't believe he's as good in space against H-backs and receivers as he's being hyped I also believe its because people, not just UM fans, want so desperately to see him as the next Woodson. If you want to trust the stat nerds on this, Peppers missed just over 20% of his tackle attempts in 2015.

I see him as a better weapon NOT on defense. A top tier return man and package/gadget player on offense. He's not even the best DB on his own team at the moment, that honor belongs to Lewis. As many people like to say, he's a good 'football player' - but a complete defensive player? Not at the moment. His reads and recognition need to be a little quicker. But this might have something to do with being moved around at too many positions. If so you can see that being a chess piece sometimes hurts your effectiveness at the specific position your asked to play for that down or alignment. Keys become instinctive over time, some of the best defenders are cerebral pre snap but after that.... its just instinct and knowing your position in your bones along with the feel for how you cover with it. I don't see Peppers having that yet.

Perfect by no means at player analysis. I'm not arrogant enough to believe my word is the end all, be all. But I have made cases elsewhere against the players I mentioned and for other ones we may have drafted.

I was cool with Trent, Colt, Robiskie, Greg little (thought he'd be a RB) and to a much lesser extent, Gilbert. I mean, I didn't want Manziel period so I was happy we didnt take him at 4. Justin was not the #1CB on my list that year (Roby) but I was willing to let it ride.

As for Kiper, I AM arrogant enough to say I'm not the T.V. personality he is, but I'm a better judge of talent. Keep in mind he was the one that had Clausen #1 overall in 2011.

As for Braylon. The UM thing was a waaaaay distant second. I know a quality player when I see one and if they have the motor and talent then university goes by the way side. First and foremost his hands were unsteady before turning pro - you've seen me harp on it here. The first attribute I look at for receivers is their hands, including consistency and catch radius. Braylon didn't let me down over the course of time.

I really don't give a shit what you believe or not. Since Harbaugh has come home I've taken a keen interest in watching many of their games as I can find. You don't want to accept that? Fine. I can assure you though my thoughts on Peppers have almost nothing to do with bias.

Gorsh, Mickey - please refer back to my mentioning that Peppers is better at non defensive things than he is being a complete defensive player.