Old school exec? No... can't see one that would "play well" with existing FO... an FO whose structure I believe in. The way I look at it we've churned through multiple execs with "player knowledge" since '99... been there... done that.

We now have a structure where scouts who show good judgement plus the ability to work with and persuade others can grow and rise in prominence. Those who don't can be culled and replaced. All quietly without fanfare leaving us ultimately with a "deep bench".

@mudfly said:

I am one of the nicest guys here. Seriously. Though I enjoy it, this is one of the rudest boards I've ever been on (and I've been on several). Why are you singling me out? And I guess you don't realize that you go after other posters just as hard as I do, you just veil it in sarcasm. That is a theme in a ton of your posts including the one I was responding to.

@baconhound said:

So, you agree with what I wrote that we've sucked at the draft since 1999. As for Cameron and Barnidge, we only drafted 1 of them (Cameron) mid-late. Both made the Pro Bowl so I'd have to say there's some degree of pleasant surprise with both choices when healthy or with halfway decent QBing provided. This year, Barnidge is surrounded by 1st year starters at WR counting either a first year QB or broken veterans. Cameron got a big contract elsewhere; but remains injury prone. Doesn't mean he lacked talent.

Early on, Kessler looked to be somewhat of a pleasant surprise so people found a silver lining to post about. I think we gotta go back about 6-7 weeks to find the last one though.

Nobody is asking you or expecting you to be excited especially when we're not. That's why your careful wording of "many are celebrating" is way below your usual standard in here. I can assure you there isn't 1 fan sick of losing in here. Last year at this time, the evaluations of Shelton were completely different than this year so let's try to understand this could also be possible with guys we drafted this year.

In 2007, we went 10-6 with Derek Anderson as our QB. After Charlie Frye couldn't get out of his own way in the opener, Anderson's first 9 or 10 starts paved the way for 29 TD passes and a Pro Bowl alternate. People posted their excitement and the powerful first impressions kept many doing so even after the early midnight in that Cinderella story. Keep in mind this is a career backup type of guy everywhere but Cleveland.

I bring this up because the year we traded up to draft a Kellen Winslow that missed 2 of his first 3 seasons, we could have traded back or stayed put to select Ben Roethlisberger (who played college ball right in Ohio for our scouts to see as easily as possible). That bigger ceiling than DA could have made that 2007 season something more significant than missing the playoffs with 10 wins. More recently, we had opportunities to draft the following help the Raiders are enjoying this year: Khalil Mack, Amari Cooper and Derek Carr. We say we want game changers as if they weren't on our door step in 2014 and 2015 but they were... It's amazing how much easier direction(s) can get when you don't start off with a few wrong turns.

As far as accurately evaluating first year starters at WR (or any receiving positions) in this dumpster fire with our QBs; there's a major variable missing in the assessment. The chances of finding an Antonio Brown with our passers is close to zero as we contemplate how a Taylor Gabriel that only scored 1 TD in 2 seasons here has about 6 TDs with Matt Ryan throwing him the ball. This often includes Julio Jones on the other side of formation attracting enough attention to ease all other matchups. When he had a halfway decent QB in Hoyer, he had the 2nd highest yards per catch on the team with 17.3 behind Benjamin's 17.4. Last year's QBing, decreased Gabriel to only 8.6 yards per catch. I'm guessing the QBing we had in training camp and preseason games didn't do him any favors either. That's probably why there weren't very many fans posting how could we let Gabriel go back when it happened. Pryor is getting very frustrated when RG3 remains an area code away from getting the ball to him.

Being on the right path doesn't mean they have all star talent. It means they

have the right coach, ...coaches, and their criteria for drafting players is finally

freaking intelligent.

It isn't about how many players are cheapshot steriod sombeitches who fit over at three rivers

scum stadium/

It's about developing talent we have, continuing to build a solid locker room, and adding excellent talent that

is an excellent fit. So the proof is subjective - I see a team that plays kickass football right to the last play.

I see a team that even in training camp, which I got to see in person.... that training camp - the pace, the attitude,

the comradrie.. was outstanding and I've never seen it before. You go hiking on a trail, you pick up some excellent stream

water, treat it, have plenty of food, and bear spray, and you are clearly on the trail...

You are on the right path to getting to your destination. All the dimwitted, shallow asswholish draft picks that failed..

look at em. Junkin, Gilbert, jm, Courtney Brown, Richardson, Josh Gordon...on and on and on and on. Athletic talent does no good

when the awesome physical talent is guided by a selfish and weakminded brain. if you don't love football, don't have a

terrific work ethic, don't play rough in a rough game, don't have the mental attributes... I would never draft a player like that.

I don't care how freaking awesome and "superstarish" Richardson was, I argued the entire draft to not draft jm. He wasn't

a fit. The gilbert pick surprised me, and that ended up a dismal disaster.

Josh Cribbs talked about it before. Some guys were prima donnas, got away with it, didn't care, didn't put in the work,

didn't care about winning..... it deflates a football team. The squealers draft cheapshot, tough, talented, dirty players

often. They make mistakes, but they are consistent in their picks. Dirty cheapshot players like Troy Pollyfullapupu showed

they were violent, really stupid cheapshot players in college. But yeah, that fits how the squealers build their dirty lockerroom.

The Browns drafted geat physical talent many, many times. So often, that some of their terrific picks give up and go

to another team where the drafters aren't failing year after year. Picking correctly once in a while doesn't cut it. "On the right path" doesn't mean you are 3/4 of the way there, dangit.

@calfoxwc said:

Surely, you misinterpreted bacon's sentiment. Start naming the Browns who would be starting for the Steelers. Four sounds about right.

Surely you can't be serious about the Browns heading in the right direction- and my name's not Shirley. Only kidding Cal. But I HAD to pull that one out.

The only objective evidence of heading in the right direction is we have a ton of cap room, and a lot of draft picks. As to being on the right track, there is no objective proof that's the case. Get back to me when we have 3 ROY candidates next year, and the Browns don't look like the Harlem Globetrotters Washington Generals of the NFL. That's objective proof.

Shirley, you don't think that there are only four players who are on the roster.

You just blab ,and not in a smart way. The Brown are on the right track. They will be much further

down the line next year.

@flugel said:

I've read posts over the the last three years telling me how awesome Jordan Cameron, Gary Barnidge, Terrell Pryor & Duke Johnson are or will be. I could go back and repost them but that's a waste of my time and you're around here enough to have viewed the threads. There are a few that are super excited about Coleman or Kessler, sorry, but I really don't see anything to get excited about any of these players.

http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/news/article-5/Browns-promote-DB-Trey-Caldwell-to-active-roster/ba7e7323-49b5-4404-826f-01d207eff5fd

@baconhound said:

If you're seeing celebration - put the crack pipe down.

Nobody is burying their head. What do you want us to brag about during 0-14 football? "Hey, did you see that gorgeous block in the back again by our return unit?" "Isn't this fun?"

To sit here and repeatedly argue about which regime to blame everything on today in the first year of a regime after the last one finished 3-18 in their final 21 games does what for us? All regimes here have inherited land mines, outdated contracts and overpaid veterans (with best football in the rear view window). Even when there's a short window of success like the last staff starting 7-4 or Crennel's 2007 season where we finished 10-6; anytime the consistent losing returns - the veterans stop buying into the coaching staff and game over. The window slams shut on the staff - fair or not. If we finish 0-16, and we start out 2017 winless - how long will it be before the vets quit on this staff too? Again, we've been watching what follows consistent losing since 1999.

Newsflash: we've been really bad at drafting since 1999 and it continues to kill us. That's why people keep saying they want game changers instead of draft volume. I'm guessing if we did better in the first couple rounds of the draft in the last 6-7 years or more - we'd be celebrating Khalil Mack's streak of sacks over the last 10 weeks. We might have even had Derek Carr throwing strikes to a Pro Bowl WR like Amari Cooper. Do you know what suddenly stopped Oakland from drafting high up in the draft every year? Getting their first couple of rounds right in those areas of impact we long for. While I'm at it, the TN Titans earned the right to draft first overall in 2016 before trading it away just 1 year after they drafted 2nd overall in 2015. They're 8-6 today. Their last 2 first round picks were Mariota and Conklin. Pretty good impact toward some big improvements on offense there.

Now, think of how many times we've whiffed with either 1 or 2 first round picks - and we're going to argue which regime deserves all the credit every single Monday like a sorority house taken hostage by pms? Anyway, please feel free to show me which of our fans are celebrating today or last year...

@mudfly said:

Its was a rhetorical question guys....I already knew the answer...

Glad you didnt.....not interested in hearing it...

Here's why.....

When I post, I stick to voicing my opinion.....and avoid going after other posters,calling them dumb or their opinions dumb.....why?.....cause thats what mature discussion is about...

On the other hand....when you post....you focus on putting others opinions downs, calling them stupid, telling them what to think, to shut up, to stop saying what they feel, etc.....

When you learn to respect we all have differing opinions and can post w/o taking swipes at everybody, I might develop a tad of respect for you and your thoughts....but, right now, thats not in the cards....

As far as team improvement goes. You would think special teams would be showing some fire to them and be the first part of the team to show progress. Maybe I missed something somewhere but ST play pretty much sucks as much now as it did in Sept. To me ...that's a good barometer to go by for progress. They haven't. All them rookies and horrible St play. That just doesn't make sense to me. But hey we got the greatest HC ever. He's a whopping 8-22 NFL and 0-14 with the Browns. I really do hope they get it turned around. But that involves winning football games....Period...

@wargograw said:

I thought about answering your questions in detail. I could, and I'd like to.

Glad you didnt.....not interested in hearing it...

Here's why.....

When I post, I stick to voicing my opinion.....and avoid going after other posters,calling them dumb or their opinions dumb.....why?.....cause thats what mature discussion is about...

On the other hand....when you post....you focus on putting others opinions downs, calling them stupid, telling them what to think, to shut up, to stop saying what they feel, etc.....

When you learn to respect we all have differing opinions and can post w/o taking swipes at everybody, I might develop a tad of respect for you and your thoughts....but, right now, thats not in the cards....

@mudfly said:

Right...nobodies surprised by the record.....just mad....

We saw the moves last FA period....we saw the draft.....got mad and predicted shit.....and then were rewarded.....with shit...

I remember being told Pettine was so bad, that Hue woulda won 4-5 more games with the same talent....and the consensus was that we fired the staff because the team was under performing due to poor coaching.....so, if the team was "actually" 4 games better, that would make it a 7 win team...correct?(and they did win 7 the year before, correct?)

So....based upon the staff all getting fired for an under performing team....here are my 2 questions....

1) If the above is true(and the team should have won 7 last year).....why did we dismantle a team that was just a couple/few games away from playoff contention?

or....

2) If the talent was so bad, we couldnt win.....then why did we fire an entire staff , in only their 2nd year, when they had no chance to win?

The 2 choices dont support each other as smart moves.....conundrum

I thought about answering your questions in detail. I could, and I'd like to. But at this point (as you bring him up in yet another thread), all I can think about is you telling me you weren't bitter about Pettine's firing.

@hoorta said:

Just STFU. I never said I "Wanted" 2 wins. I "PREDICTED" 2 wins- at best. If you want a quote "I have the Browns over\under on wins at 2-1\2, and I'm taking the under". If you can find a few of my posts where I said we'd go winless, damned if it doesn't look like I'm going to be right, huh? Kindly quit being a jackass. The Browns have far exceeded my low expectations. If this FO has a "plan" I want to see it's actually working before I start kissing their asses, OK? Want me to quote Shashi about how many wins he expected this year? Think he's going to come out and say we f**ked up royally?

When you going to figure out it doesn't make a damn bit of difference if I have a plan or not, Haslam and the Front Office are going to do whatever the hell they think best. So just give us three years to turn this around. Like I have a choice? In Savage we trust, In Holmgren we trust, in Farmer we trust. Heard it all before way too many times, sorry if I trust you as far as I could throw you. We got a bean counter and a baseball guy running the show. Romeo Crennell got three years, Butch Davis too, before he flipped out. If you want to know, the guy I have my season tickets with (I bought in on his seniority, which currently stands at 34 years, so put your thinking cap on as to how long we've been fans) is seriously pissed off too about our current state of suckage. Mud put it more eloquently- if you're embarking on a total rebuild, there was no need to dynamite the foundation in the process.

Man, you apparently have some reading comprehension problems- (others have said the same thing). I'm not the first person you've attacked because I'm not satisfied with the current product. So sorry- I think I've earned the right to bitch.

BTW, if Sashi and Depo DO manage to turn things around, I'll be the first to lead the parade with pom-poms- 1986-89 was a LONG time ago.

Geez? Melt down much? So you concede we've only given a whopping two guys three years, so tell me again how we've been through five three-year plans?

It's funny how you question my reading comprehension then deny saying you wanted two wins....when I never said you wanted two wins.

Like I said, you knew what was gonna happen. That you didn't properly prepare for it mentally is not my problem. I don't lose my mind when something happens that I predicted 8 months prior. That's just me.

Fan influence does make a difference. And all you and your ilk do with your incessant whining is foster change in the organization, thus aiding in the team being terrible.

@cainedesoulis said:

Regarding Bowe- we may never know about that one. Did Farmer tell Pettine you can't cut my guy? I mentioned it in another thread. Mike was also saddled with a humongous albatross by the name of Johnny Football, Puffy Gordon sitting out the year didn't help either.

@mudfly said:

Because the GM was an egotistical dope who didn't understand today's NFL game.

And because the coach was a dopey ghost (the man tried a 60 yard FG with Devon Hester waiting in the end zone - TWICE)

That gang HAD to go. You can't have consistency just for the sake of it.

@mudfly said:

This is what scares me. Many celebrate the mediocre talent that shines in Cleveland while burying their head in the sand about the complete lack of talent on the field.

We saw the moves last FA period....we saw the draft.....got mad and predicted shit.....and then were rewarded.....with shit...

I remember being told Pettine was so bad, that Hue woulda won 4-5 more games with the same talent....and the consensus was that we fired the staff because the team was under performing due to poor coaching.....so, if the team was "actually" 4 games better, that would make it a 7 win team...correct?(and they did win 7 the year before, correct?)

So....based upon the staff all getting fired for an under performing team....here are my 2 questions....

1) If the above is true(and the team should have won 7 last year).....why did we dismantle a team that was just a couple/few games away from playoff contention?

or....

2) If the talent was so bad, we couldnt win.....then why did we fire an entire staff , in only their 2nd year, when they had no chance to win?

The 2 choices dont support each other as smart moves.....conundrum

@wargograw said:

Just STFU. I never said I "Wanted" 2 wins. I "PREDICTED" 2 wins- at best. If you want a quote "I have the Browns over\under on wins at 2-1\2, and I'm taking the under". If you can find a few of my posts where I said we'd go winless, damned if it doesn't look like I'm going to be right, huh? Kindly quit being a jackass. The Browns have far exceeded my low expectations. If this FO has a "plan" I want to see it's actually working before I start kissing their asses, OK? Want me to quote Shashi about how many wins he expected this year? Think he's going to come out and say we f**ked up royally?

When you going to figure out it doesn't make a damn bit of difference if I have a plan or not, Haslam and the Front Office are going to do whatever the hell they think best. So just give us three years to turn this around. Like I have a choice? In Savage we trust, In Holmgren we trust, in Farmer we trust. Heard it all before way too many times, sorry if I trust you as far as I could throw you. We got a bean counter and a baseball guy running the show. Romeo Crennell got three years, Butch Davis too, before he flipped out. If you want to know, the guy I have my season tickets with (I bought in on his seniority, which currently stands at 34 years, so put your thinking cap on as to how long we've been fans) is seriously pissed off too about our current state of suckage. Mud put it more eloquently- if you're embarking on a total rebuild, there was no need to dynamite the foundation in the process.

Man, you apparently have some reading comprehension problems- (others have said the same thing). I'm not the first person you've attacked because I'm not satisfied with the current product. So sorry- I think I've earned the right to bitch.

BTW, if Sashi and Depo DO manage to turn things around, I'll be the first to lead the parade with pom-poms- 1986-89 was a LONG time ago.

@hoorta said:

You're the one who's not making much sense. Give it three years? 1999-2016 is around 5 three year plans- the fan base is finally fed up with it. Empty seats and those ones that are filled with opposing fans speak volumes about the frustration.

Shocked at 0-14? What the f**k are you talking about? I predicted 2 wins and now I'm supposed to be shocked that I was right?

This isn't panic mode pal. I shell out over $2,000 a year on season tickets and Directv. If I walk into a 5 star restaurant and they serve me up an incredibly lousy meal, I shouldn't complain to the management, and on top of it come back for more of the same crap?

I'll let the brainless trust figure out what they need to do to get this joke of a franchise headed in the right direction. I don't need to offer suggestions- like Jimmy is going to listen to a schmuck like me? Here's a suggestion- don't listen to homeless guys on the street when the tell you to draft Manziel.

Sorry guy- I refuse to get sunshine pumped up my ass anymore. I picked the name Curmudgeon in the Survival league for a reason. I'll believe it when I see it that this team has turned the corner. My mantra for the last several years has been Missouri's "SHOW ME". 0-14, going on 0-16 yup, you sure showed me alright.

Boy the lack of logic (and math) in your first paragraph was just jaw dropping. I don't even know what to say. How many guys have had three years in that entire span?

Oh so at 2 wins you'd be acting like a grown man, instead of whatever this charade is. I'm sorry we couldn't cover that 0-2 gap buddy. I know it's so massive it's the difference in happiness and not. And besides, you're lucky I'm on mobile because on desktop I'd find all your posts where you predicted a winless season.

The "brainless trust" has a plan. You have no plan. We'll never get to see the fruits of their plan if sad fans that really want their 2 wins back don't stfu.