@ghoolie said:

@westside-steve said:

So could Zeitler...

@umadogg1 said:

Garrett giving Ogbuehi fits doesn't mean much in retrospect.

Ogbuehi is busting pretty hard in Cincy. He can't anchor, doesn't have much of a punch, and has already washed out at ORT. To improve his confidence the Bengals moved him to OLT for a game and he promptly gave up 2 sacks and got whipped in the run game.

He's been so bad the Bengals simply have to keep Whitworth, an unexpected expense that may cost them FA Kevin Zeitler at ORG. Ogbuehi could end up there, kicked inside to ORG, if Zeitler leaves in free agency as expected..

Ogbu is just another cautionary tale that the best "athelete" in the OL class does not translate to success in the NFL.

Best example is Greg Robinson who showed poor to no technique both in his tapes and his combine workouts. Yet the Rams jumped early, #2 overall early, on his "promise" and were forced to try to salvage him as an OG... and he's struggled there as well.

WSS

Ogbuehi is busting pretty hard in Cincy. He can't anchor, doesn't have much of a punch, and has already washed out at ORT. To improve his confidence the Bengals moved him to OLT for a game and he promptly gave up 2 sacks and got whipped in the run game.

He's been so bad the Bengals simply have to keep Whitworth, an unexpected expense that may cost them FA Kevin Zeitler at ORG. Ogbuehi could end up there, kicked inside to ORG, if Zeitler leaves in free agency as expected..

@gftchris said:

I would argue that Hue Jackson asking Ogbuehi, his former player, about Myles Garrett isn't a huge risk. Maybe asking about other players on the team, sure, but literally everyone expects Garrett to be in the conversation at #1.

In general, asking players on your own team about prospects isn't something I'd considered before but really should be done when thinking about it.

Brain fart had me placing Ogbuehi in Seattle... and inside... Doh!

Point taken about the #1 pick. And the history Hue has could offset much of the intradivisional concern.

Could also argue that a "leaked" inquiry would be of value to a disinformation campaign.

@tour2ma said:

You say confusing... I say discerning... Let's call the whole thing off...

We have a winner...

Joe Jones 2.0?

I joke, but am still hard pressed to think of a post 2000's day player that played truly, visibly "angry". Deacon Jones fit that description... Lambert certainly did... Tatum... Ray Ray? Not so sure... not the latter day version anyway.

Bill Romanowski was still around in the early 2000's I believe. Granted he'd be considered more of a 90's player.

Also I'm not sure if he necessarily played "mad." He was just crazy.

@tour2ma said:

I would argue that Hue Jackson asking Ogbuehi, his former player, about Myles Garrett isn't a huge risk. Maybe asking about other players on the team, sure, but literally everyone expects Garrett to be in the conversation at #1.

In general, asking players on your own team about prospects isn't something I'd considered before but really should be done when thinking about it.

@texasag1969 said:

Since Ogbuehi ended up at OG...

Interesting take... I wonder how much intel is sought from players on other teams. Seems less "secure" than former coaches and other sources. Plus contact with players under contract with other teams is heavily regulated. But if done, then players in the other conference would be the best, or least bad, choice. Might depend on interactions with a given player when they were in the draft.

Whatever we are doing, I think it has to be more than we were doing given Farmer's seeming lack of interest in visiting with players. Can't remember Browns reps squirting water on balls prior to last year.

Also wonder how much we have involved/will involve players in prospect evals... or, again, how much we can involve them. Would have been cool to see Joe T. "assisting" our South staff in Mobile, but he had a business conflict in Orlando. Certainly would seem appropriate to involve team leaders in prospect visits to Berea. A Myles workout opposite Joe would be interesting.

@the-gipper said:

Well most teams actually have scouts who get out from behind their computers to find out first hand what kinds of intangibles are in play. The Browns have obviously had extremely poor scouting overall. Hopefully at the Combine and at school pro days we will actually do more than superficial interviewing. War's reference to Ogbuehi being given fits in practice when he was there with Garrett would be a good starting place. Ogbuehi could give a lot of insight into what drives Garrett to be the best player on the field and how that translated to daily practice against one another. From there (and many other sources) the best scouts develop the best questions for potential draftees.

@flugel said:

This is why I wonder about the whole "analytical" process thing. It accounts for numbers, statistics etc....but does it measure passion and intensity? I assume not, so how do they work around that?

Zombo said:

And like I've said forever about Mingo, he has the instincts of a raccoon crossing the road at night. Sometimes, you have to have a front office that can IDENTIFY if a guy has instincts or not on film. I've watched us draft guys like Mingo thinking all he needs is a little coaching up.

We've also repeatedly drafted WRs that can't catch thinking all we have to do is coach it up. Then we gave up way too early on guys like Lance Moore and Willie Snead. Keep in mind, we also CUT Pryor in 2015 before we brought him back way too late to get any game experience whatsoever.

I never thought I be typing we gave up way too early on Taylor Gabriel too; but then again we didn't have Matt Ryan throwing strikes or Julio Jones attracting extra DB attention to ease his matchups. My final memory of Gabriel here was the bubble screen in St Louis that gave him Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome and allergies to Flip's flop here. I'm not sure he would have found our 2016 set up any better or anywhere as near as comfortable as returning to the OC he once averaged 17.3 yards per catch for.

Zombo said:

I think we finally have our word.

@wargograw said:

Cushing is a mean streak guy too. Also Brandon Spikes tried to poke someone's eye out.

Cushing is a great example...

@texasag1969 said:

... (Garrett) sees himself as his favorite dinosaur "raptor" on the field and likes to play that way.

I was going to make an arm-length joke, but turns out raptors arms were pretty damn long... I hate it when that happens...

Zombo said:

Z, your guy is Reuben Foster..my damn laptop won't download but youtube reuben foster national title game & picture Big Bitchin Ben getting closed-line like Watson does early in game by Foster..If that don't work How about the "Watson Helicopter Spin" sponsored by Foster late in same game...Every Dawg Needs a Bitch..W O O F!!

@texasag1969 said:

Well as I said on another thread, he sees himself as his favorite dinosaur "raptor" on the field and likes to play that way. As long as he gets there as fast as one and takes people down with his "claws", then I don't care how mild he seems off the field.

Ya, no one gives a shit about off the field.

Unless he's a quarterback.

And he blows off his team at the end of the year to party.

Twice.

And his name's Johnny.

Zombo

"Mean streak" and "Nasty" doesn't mean psychopath, it means they play with passion. Or as I first put it ... An "edge".

Certainly you have seen a lot of that in our division ... Ray Lewis, Jerome Harrison, Geno Atkins ... That Dupree kid Pittsburgh has now looks to have "it".

Bark Mingo is still perfect size, can still run fast and jump high ... Doesn't play with fire. No mean streak. Useless as male nipples.

To me, that fire is the bridge from great athlete to great football player.

I want to hear Garrett has it if we are throwing #1 overall around. He needs to be Miller or Mack. They aren't just great athletes, they play with intensity and passion.

Z

@gftchris said:

Burfict?

We have a winner...

Zombo said:

I think what you are calling "intense" embodies the "mean streak" I'm looking for. Von Miller is very nasty on the field. Plays like the QB said something mean about his momma. That's what I want to see. Not just another "great athlete" that has a "nice career" ... I want a nasty sob that is out to kill.

The greatest pass rushers all play with anger and intensity. Combine the intensity and freak athleticism and you get your Bruce Smith's and Von Miller's.

Courtney Brown could have played in the league a long time if he stayed healthy, but he never would have been a legendary player because he didn't have the killer instinct.

Joe Jones 2.0?

I joke, but am still hard pressed to think of a post 2000's day player that played truly, visibly "angry". Deacon Jones fit that description... Lambert certainly did... Tatum... Ray Ray? Not so sure... not the latter day version anyway.

I dunno... maybe it's just my symantical hangup, AKA a "personal problem", but "angry" or "mean" or "nasty" or "killer" bring a borderline out-of-control with them that fits Burfect and maybe a couple others (Aquib "I'll poke your eye out" Talib just sprang to mind). They may operate on the "legal" side of the proverbial line almost all the time, but every once in a while... or in Burfect's case thrice in a while... they go off.

Anyway... Intense? Absolutely... with a heaping helping of will-not-be-denied determination that only grows with not getting the job done because the man across from you is winning your personal battle within the greater gridiron war... but you never, ever lose control... and you never become satisfied... even if it's you winning repeatedly.

I'll bet that sounds like a guy you'd covet as well.

@gftchris said:

You're missing the point there Gip.

What? Are you implying the #1 overall does not come with pixie dust?

@gftchris said:

Burfict?

That's the best example right now, for sure. Certainly not the minimum standard though. I think Tour is confusing "mean streak" with actual, legitimate malice. Only a couple guys have that and they are usually psychopaths (not that I wouldn't take one).

@tour2ma said:

Maybe it's the glasses...

Von comes off as very controlled, calm, relaxed in interviews. Just saw him in one yesterday.

On-field? Intense to be sure and in combo with his physical gifts I can certainly see them add up to "terrifying", but not menacing... not "nasty"... certainly not dirty or cheap-shotting.

Just my long-distance take... which I am not in position to augment with TAMU tales.

Could be he's grown? Grown up?

Don't get me wrong, Mike Sherman turned him into a man. But I doubt that's affected his on-field persona. Did ya see the interview where he bragged about trying to teabag Brady?

I think he's menacing in a The Joker sort of way. It's more him laughing at you as he does it than him just being a total ahole.

Anyway, regardless, back to the point. Garrett is none of that. We will see if that matters or not.