@browns52 said:

When you say "don't think so" you mean you would not replace anyone? I have already agreed to replace Orpheus Roye with Rob Burnett.

@the-gipper said:

don't think so. everytime i see or hear jim houston's name it takes me back to the 69 championship game vs the vikings when he and joe kapp hit head on near the end of the game and kapp broke houston's shoulder. that was a tough collision there....

Zombo said:

I have already relinquished on the Roye pick in favor of Burnett...though I still of the opinion that the DE has been a weak spot historically for the Browns. Like I said, I remember Reggie Camp as favorably as I do Burnett.

Never thought about Gillom having never seen him play., though I did think about Collins..who I did see.. But I think you are right about Gillom.

I gave Dawson the #2 kicker spot. I wonder if Groza would have made the HOF simply on the basis of his work at LT. If he had not been the leading scorer for many years in NFL history would he have made it.

Since he partially made the HOF as a kicker...I had to give him that nod.

@the-gipper said:

I see, you are just plugging in AV values from PFF.

I've seen Burnett play and I've seen Roye play, Burnett was a more dynamic player and an integral cog in a very good defense. Burnett was better all around player and had 35.5. sacks his last four years in Cleveland as well, and made the Pro Bowl. Orpheus Roye ... not so much.

Cockroft was not our best kicker, and certainly was not our best punter, doesn't belong on the team, IMO.

Phil Dawson was an outstanding kicker, and Horace Gillom really set the standard as far as punters go in his day, and he innovated the position with his booming hang time kicks.

Lou Groza would make my roster as an OT, so that frees up the kicker spot for Dawson.

Zombo

Perhaps only if we were doing a post 1970 team.

@tour2ma said:

I was not going for one year wonders. If that were the case we would have to put Josh Gordon on as 1st All Time Browns. (same for Braylon)

Milt Morin had a much more productive overall career.

@ballpeen said:

I think that is probably a good choice. Better than Roye and Burnett overall. Again, perhaps the thing that caused me to exclude him originally is the fact that he played more of his career with the Giants. Though...I see that like Warfield, he came back to the Browns after being away. So he was with the Browns a good 6 years, which could/should get him the nod.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/G/GregJa00.htm

Burnett played with the Browns also 6 years. (of course...he went to Balt. with "the move"......and played a total of 12 years between the Browns and Ravens...but I only count Browns years)

@ghoolie said:

A title may not make a QB...but it does not hurt. During Plum's tenure here the Browns never made the playoffs (yes...only 1 team per conf. did that. With Ryan they made playoffs 3-4 times. Plus, as I noted, his TDs were much better.

As for passer rating...I have always thought that was a bit of a bogus stat. Jeff Garcia has a better passer rating than both Ryan and Plum....should we consider him for Browns all time team? Clearly not.

@tour2ma said:

Both fair points. on Pruitt, Lahr. I originally had Pruitt...but then realized that Bobby Mitchell is a HOF player...and that while with the Browns he did play HB.....moving between runner and receiver...ergo the choice of Mitchell.

@mjp28 said:

The year we traded up (losing a 3rd or 4th rd pick) to draft him, we could have stayed put and drafted another guy who didn't know how to ride a motorcycle - Ben Roethlisberger. I posted something stupid after learning he would survive like it looks like Ben Riden will be wearing a bigger turban than Bin Laden today. Then I added there's just something special about Pittsburgh QBs bouncing off of hard surfaces. This ended up in the Pittsburgh Gazette about the extent of hatred in the rivalry from the message board we used to have prior to this.

@flugel said:

Yep....agree with you and Z on this one....all the way.....

Rob may have only been here til "95....but then, the same can be said for the whole team.....

Id go out on a limb and say he was one of our best 5th round picks ever......along with Baab.....

....and both would be on my all time team....

@tour2ma said:

I've been thinking about TEs and while Ozzie is the clear #1, I think a case can be made for KW, Jr. as our #2.

KW is co-holder of our single-season reception record (89) with Ozzie. His 1106 receiving yards in 2007 is the 6th best in our history and the highest total for any TE.

The kid was a physical freak... unfortunately he was a mental one as well... and owned a motorcycle...

I thought he would have been a perennial pro bowler....until he tried playing Evil Kneivel.

What a waste of talent and a 1st round draft pick.

KW is co-holder of our single-season reception record (89) with Ozzie. His 1106 receiving yards in 2007 is the 6th best in our history and the highest total for any TE.

The kid was a physical freak... unfortunately he was a mental one as well... and owned a motorcycle...

He is unofficially credited with 103 quarterback sacks for his career (38 with the Browns and 65 with the Giants).^[1] The Browns credit him with 14 sacks for the 1970 NFL season, the second-best total in team history.^[2]

@the-gipper said:

That's like saying Trent Dilfer is better than Dan Marino when he was the beneficiary of a great defense and a RB that rushed for over 2000 yards (500 of those yards in just 6 quarters vrs Cleveland).

All that said, nice job with the list and discussion piece here Gips.

FWIW, Paul Brown called Mike MacCormack the best offensive lineman he ever coached (which shocked me considering how long Groza was a standard of excellence for him)

I LOVED Mike Johnson in the middle and the flexibility of Clay Matthews to play any LBer position in either front (43 or 34).

Good job remembering Mike Babb.

Here's some of my faves that didn't make your list at positions we had a great tradition with:

Greg Pruitt

Kevin Mack

Mike Pruitt

Earnest Byner

OT:

Tony T-Bone Jones (undrafted and underrated)

Cody Risien (2 Pro Bowls)

Replacement: I think Zombo had a good point about putting Rob Burnett ahead of Orpheus Roye.

RB: Leroy Kelly, Bobby Mitchell

FB: Jim Brown, Marion Motley

WRs: Paul Warfield, Dante Lavelli, Gary Collins, Mack Speedie

TE: Ozzie Newsome, Milt Morin

OT: Mike MacCormack Joe Thomas, Dick Shafrath,, , Doug Dieken..

OG: Gene Hickerson, John Wooten, Joe Dellameleure, Robert Jackson

OC: Frank Gatski, Mike Babb

K: Lou Groza, Phil Dawson

DE: Len Ford, Paul Wiggin, Jack Gregory, Turkey Jones

DT: Jerry Sherk Walter Johnson, Michael Dean Perry, , Bob Gain

NT: Bill Willis, Bob Golic

OLB: Clay Matthews, Jim Houston, Chip Banks, Galen Fiss

MLB: Mike Johnson,Dick Ambrose, Vince Costello, , Eddie Johnson

CB: Hanford Dixon, Clarence Scott, Frank Minnifield, Bernie Parrish

S: Thom Darden, Eric Turner,Ross Fichtner, Walt Sumner

P: Don Cockroft, Chris Gardocki

PR/KR: Josh Cribbs, Eric Metcalf,

LS: Ryan Pontbriand

Would you replace anyone?

Meanwhile back at the thread...

HB - I'd drop Bobby Mitchell in favor of Greg Pruitt. Bobby was a far better WR than he was RB.

CB - List has to include Warren Lahr... only question is whether he is #1 or #2 at that position.

@the-gipper said:

I don't know. Ryan won a title.....plus FYI....Frank Ryan has the third highest TD to attempt ratio in NFL history....and the best since 1950. The 2 guys above him played in like the 1930s/early 40s.

I mean....they let Plum go...and brought Ryan in.....and won a title.

Kind of hard to argue with that.

Remember guys like Gary Collins?

Oh on Gary Collins TRUE STORY back in the 1960s around 1965 the Gulf gas company had a promotion when you got gas you got game pieces to collect and try to win prizes. Well the grand prize was a brand new FORD MUSTANG CONVERTIBLE but to win you needed all on a game card (like McDonald's now).

Well the hard to get one was the Gary Collins piece a guy my dad worked with back then got it but didn't really realize what he had and someone there threw it in the trash. Well he found out and they went nuts looking in the house, trash, everywhere.

But sadly Gary Collins was long gone as was that brand new sporty 1965 Mustang.

Do any of you guys remember Gulf gas? They had the two horseshoes in their ads and on these game pieces, I sure do.

@bob806 said:

I am willing to back off on Roye. It was the one choice that I made with the least confidence.

I am just not that high on the choices of Pleasant and Burnett for that last DE spot.

Any other candidates?

Or future candidates? Ogbah/Nassib...or whomever we get in this draft?

@mjp28 said:

If we are just comparing Sipe and Kosar....they both played pretty much under the same rules/playoff system. Same number of playoff games/teams. Its not like with OG or Ryan....in whose era one single postseason game was played for the most part.

@ghoolie said:

I don't know. Ryan won a title.....plus FYI....Frank Ryan has the third highest TD to attempt ratio in NFL history....and the best since 1950. The 2 guys above him played in like the 1930s/early 40s.

I mean....they let Plum go...and brought Ryan in.....and won a title.

Kind of hard to argue with that.

@bob806 said:

Yea, but I don't know that I would put him above any of the older guys, like Fichtner and Sumner. But certainly worth consideration.

@the-gipper said:

Orpheous Roye was a Steeler, so I could never really get on board there. Reminded me of when the Tribe had Jack Morris, I hated it.

@the-gipper said:

Surely this is true. Take the difference between Sipe and Kosar. Their numbers and their winning pct. with the Browns is nearly identical....but think about it: Brian Sipe played in one single playoff game for the Browns...and lost.

Kosar on the other hand played in a number of playoff games....and won a few...making it to the conf. title game 3 times.

Sipe never came close. Was Kosar a better QB than Sipe because of it? Or, was the team around BK better than the team around Sipe?

And then you throw Ryan into the mix. Played in 2 NFL title games...plus a couple of other playoff games later. Won it all in 1964. Lost in 1965. Won one and lost another later.

How many postseason playoff games were there? Wild cards? How many teams?

NFL rules! No I mean the rule book when comparing 1957 and 1989 it has it's own built in biases.