@tour2ma said:

LOL!

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:

It also shows you how to identify the people are too timourous to engage in a bit of trash talking...and who are caitiff to support their various positions.

@ghoolie said:

Not correct, Larry. Only In a vacuum would your numbers be correct. I am not going to do the calculations now, but in air, with the constant of air resistance, the balls speed that matters is the same as muzzle velocity.....

.....The only speed that matter is the speed in which the QB releases the ball. That can only be measured in touchdowns, and completed passes.

Ball speed is a stat for jackoffs who don't understand football, or science..

Oh God here we go again but what the hell I'll bite, no need to get my old college Physics text books out, from the dummies series on football (no kidding):

http://www.dummies.com/sports/football/offense/skills-a-quarterback-needs-to-succeed-in-american-football/

SKILLS A QUARTERBACK NEEDS TO SUCCEED IN AMERICAN FOOTBALL

Arm strength: Velocity is important when throwing a football because it allows a quarterback to complete a pass before a single defensive player can recover (react to the pass) and possibly deflect or intercept the ball. The more arm strength a quarterback has, the better his ability to throw the ball at a high speed.

Competitiveness: A players competitiveness is made up of many subjective and intangible qualities. A quarterback should have the desire to be the teams offensive leader and, ideally, overall leader. No one should work harder in practice than he does.

Intelligence: Many NFL teams have a 3-inch-thick playbook that includes at least 50 running plays and as many as 200 passing plays. The quarterback has to know them all. He has to know not only what hes supposed to do in every one of those plays but also what the other skilled players (running backs, receivers, and tight ends) are required to do. On some teams, the quarterback is also responsible for informing the offensive linemen of their blocking schemes.

Mobility: A quarterbacks mobility is as important as his intelligence and his arm. He must move quickly to avoid being tackled by defensive players. Therefore, he must move backward (called retreating) from the center as quickly as possible in order to set himself up to throw the ball. When a quarterback has excellent mobility, you hear him described as having quick feet. This term means that he moves quickly and effortlessly behind the line of scrimmage with the football.

Release: If a quarterback doesnt have exceptional arm strength, hed better have a quick release. After the quarterback raises the ball in his hand, usually near his head or slightly above and behind it, he releases, or rapidly brings his arm forward and lets the ball loose.

Height: A quarterback wants to be tall enough to see over his linemen whose average height in the NFL is 65 to 67 and look down the field, beyond the line of scrimmage, to find his receivers and see where the defensive backs are positioned.

Weight: A quarterback can expect a lot of physical contact, especially when attempting to pass. Defenders relentlessly pursue the quarterback to hit him, tackling him for a sack (a loss of yards behind the line of scrimmage) before he can throw a pass or making contact after he releases a pass.

Vision: A quarterback doesnt necessarily need keen peripheral vision, but it doesnt hurt. A quarterback must quickly scan the field when he comes to the line of scrimmage prior to the snap of the ball. He must survey the defense, checking its alignments and in particular the depth of the defensive backs how far they are off the receivers, off the line of scrimmage, and so on. After the ball is snapped, the quarterback must continue to scan the field as he moves backward.

1 Case Keenum Houston (2007–2011) 19,217

2 Timmy Chang Hawaii (2000–2004) 17,072

3 Landry Jones Oklahoma (2009–2012) 16,646

4 Graham Harrell Texas Tech (2005–2008) 15,793

5 Ty Detmer BYU (1988–1991) 15,031

6 Kellen Moore Boise State (2008–2011) 14,667

7 Colt Brennan Hawaii (2005–2007) 14,193

8 Rakeem Cato Marshall (2011–2014) 14,079

9 Sean Mannion Oregon State (2011–2014) 13,600

10 Philip Rivers NC State (2000–2003) 13,484

Fair point Hoorta. Above is list of all time NCAA passing leaders. Not until you get to #10 do you get one that has had success in the pros.

As for Heisman winners....it can be a fairly questionable situation:

Tim Tebow

Troy Smith

John P. Manziel

Robert Griffin

Matt Leinert

Jason White

Eric Crouch

Chris Weinke

Danny Wuerffel

Charlie Ward

Gino Torretta

Ty Detmer

Andre War

Pat Sullivan

Steve Spurrier

Doug Flutie

For a period of like 30 years between Jim Plunkett and Carson Palmer did any Heisman winning QB do diddley with his pro career practically.

Since Carson it may have gotten a bit better: abut 50/50: Newton, Winston, Mariota, Bradford on the bubble.

In the 2000s professional success in a Heisman QB is about 40%...before that for 30 years it was about -0- pct.

You have asked this question a dozen times on here Flugs....and the fact that none of us here know the answer....even MOI, the king of trivia, do not know it. And besides, the answer does not matter:

Who cares of the "ace their rookie gig".....What I care is if they Ace their NFL career gig. I would not and no one should expect any QB to "ace their rookie season" in the NFL? How many ever have? Only guy I can think of is Dan Marino. (maybe Dak Prescott a bit). I want sustained excellence....excellence cooked in a crockpot, not in a microwave.

Oh...yea....one other guy aced his rookie season: Robert Griffin III.

So there is a clear example of preferring a QBs career to be looked at over time....not right at the onset.

@cainedesoulis said:

The ONLY Clemson QBs that had above a -0- Career Average in the NFL were Steve Fuller....and Touchdown Jesus, Charlie Whitehurst.

Beyond him I found just 1 guy who started 1 game back in 1948 named Charley Surratt.

@one-post said:

Very underappreciated post. LOL!

@ghoolie said:

And Watson threw 41 TD passes this year.

But here we are in a thread titled "Watson is Undraftable" after he led his team to 28-2 with 2 consecutive National Championship appearances vrs Alabama that Clemson scored 41 and 35 points against in the last 2 years. Before he led his team to the National Championship, he helped them beat Ohio State by 31 points. How many defenses will have more guys drafted in rounds 1 and 2 than Alabama and Ohio State this year?

Since nobody is posting they want Watson in round 1 - what could possibly be the rationale or intense need for this thread? Camp Trubisky and his small body of work. Once upon a time there was another QB in Ohio that had a small body of work that couldn't prevent the premature cult following under an adorable "Fail for Cardale" title.

@cainedesoulis said:

Believe it or not, I don't really like Cam Newton very much either. He's dumber than a pet rock when he gets interviewed. It was just weird to see him take a team with suspect protection up front and a bunch of injured RBs and WRs to a Superbowl using a TE almost exclusively as his weapon of choice. That reminds me how little1 workout mattered in holding him back.

@flugel said:

Newton has had one good year and has otherwise been a subpar QB. he's also huge enough to take the hits and runs in for a lot of TD's. so ehh it kinda balances out. last year he was much worse than osweiler even.

Also i'm biased against Newton so huge grain of salt.

You can definatly make the case for Mahomes ahead of Webb. My top 3 are pretty close i just have a more "Gut" feeling for webb and something about his throws just make the intermediate to deep ball look so good.

@cainedesoulis said:

I like Webb and the Mahomes that beat out Webb. That still doesn't sell me anyone in this year's QB class is worthy of round 1 consideration.

I don't really have anything against Trubisky other than Hoorta gets so obnoxious about him...

@hoorta said:

Really? Asks the same guy who has yet to find my very first post indicating I want/need us to draft DeShaun Watson at #1 or #12 overall.

Watson has way better pocket presence, pre-snap intellect, vision and anticipation than RG3 so I'm not taking your guilt trip about your skin color stereotype in this one. He also throws a much better out route and touch pass than RG3 from a conference that played more defense than the Big 12 did.

So, here you are feeding a thread titled Watson is undraftable having a hard time with me reminding you Trubisky was the only QB that couldn't start more than 1 year for a major DI program. Shall we default back to skin color again and remember Watson's skin resembles RG3's more?

Remember the miserable day Cam Newton had at the combines hearing how he might have just cost himself millions of $ - how much did that 1 workout stop him from being drafted where he should have been or making 1 Superbowl already? It didn't at all...

@hoorta said:

Actually i said Christian Ponder. Blaine Gabbert was again a better prospect than Watson especially in the size and athletics department including arm strength.

Also i've seen the same thing with scouts backing off of both Trubisky and Watson based on combine and pro days.

If i had to list my QB's it would be

1.Webb

2.Trubisky

3.Mahomes

4.Watson

5.Peterman

6.All other Developmental QB's, The problem with this tier is i dont see anyone here better than Kessler.

Maybe Dobbs? Maybe Kizer? i like Dobbs more than Kizer... its really tough to separate in this group.

@flugel said:

Read my posts much?

"I've said it before Watson is RG IV with a weaker arm. (and that's just traits, not skin color)"

So can the Clan Comment. In fact you owe me an apology for being inattentive. Caine duly corrected me that Gabbert is a more apt comparison.

Your just as guilty picking and choosing stuff that pumps Watson up. So boo-hoo if some guys like Jeremiah backed off on their combine assessment at his pro day. Did Watson have a better combine than Mitch? Sure he did- find where I said otherwise. What I'm scared of is assuming the gun numbers are correct (they may not be) Watson doesn't even have an "average" arm- he has a worse than Connor Shaw pop gun. As I alluded to- Griffin looked like Da Bomb to Hue under similar circumstances. Damn near any NFL prospect can look good standing there with no pass rush and throw 50 yard bombs- and I've faulted Hue time and time again for not taking that into consideration when he signed R Glass. OK, that's one nice thing I can say about Watson- in the Alabama game, he absorbed a few NFL level kill shots and didn't get injured.

Tour posted some stuff that Mitch needs to work on- duly noted. We're not drafting him @ #1. Remains to be seen if he'll still be there @ #12. BTW, with Pryor out the door- I won't be upset at all if we draft Mike Williams @ #12.

@hoorta said:

Not wanting ANY QB in the first round of this draft means I don't LOVE any of them Lancelot. I don't love Watson nearly as much as I hate seeing an ignorance that would make the Ku Klux Klan really proud of your clutch RG3 stereotype based on skin color only. Have you ever seen the replay of this pick play you keep needing to hide behind? Watson could have walked in for a TD untouched. You do know they had the ball at the 2 yard line right? Did his coach choose to run or pass? And why? Because his QB sucks or wins? In order to get all the way to that point, he had to be doing a lot right like beating Ohio State by 31 points.

Going 28-2 at Clemson the last 2 years on a team that won't have a 1/4 of the 1st and 2nd round draft picks that Alabama will have doesn't HAVE to make him the next RG3 Larry. While RG3 has a stronger arm than Watson, Watson has much better vision, pocket presence and anticipation that RG3. As we saw with DA,Weeden and RG3, being late with a strong arm means less than being on time with an average arm. Here comes that vision thing again.

I watched the combines you found too inconvenient to talk about. Having said that, I did notice Daniel Jeremiah found his workout at Clemson to be far less impressive than the combine so I see why you only need to focus on that one.

If we draft Trubisky - I'll root like Hell for the kid. That's more than I can say for what you'd do if we draft Watson. If we draft either guy at #1 or #12 I'll be too preoccupied with panic attacks to hear the boos during their inevitable growing pains. I've never pretended I needed to quit my day job to predict what college QBs will be football messiahs for the worst NFL teams. Having aid that,you've seen parts of 2 games Trubisky lost during his entire scholarship. How do you know this guy isn't anything more than the Fail for Cardale idea from a small body of work? You don't so who's being ridiculous with their expectations about a QB in this thread me?

@flugel said:

This isn't a Trubisky discussion Tom, so why bring him up?. A few scout comments on his pro day? "Average". Hue felt "the earth move" with RG III in a workout similar to the combine. Caine posted Gabbert's measurables- I'd say scarily similar. Yup, 1-1 in National Championship games. Would have been 0-2 if the refs were wearing their glasses.

Quarterback production in the college game doesn't always translate to the pros. Fact. Watson played on a great team- another fact. Should I post the list of Heisman QB busts to refresh your memory?

If you love Watson, great. I don't. I'll put Kizer in the same don't care for him either boat. If we don't take Mitch, there's around 3 other QBs I like better than Watson- another fact.

@cainedesoulis said:

Christian Ponder is the best comparison

Ponder and Watson are both the same size. ponder was roughly 8 pounds heavier for the combine.

both sported a high INT Percentage. Both had the same size arms and same ball velocity 49mph and 51mph respectively.

40yd dash Watson 4.66 Ponder 4.65

Vertical Watson 32.5 Ponder 34.0

Broad Jump Watson 119.0 Ponder 116.0

3 Cone Watson 6.95 Ponder 6.85

20yd Shuttle Watson 4.31 Ponder 4.09

Frankly his Marcus Mariota comp on nfl.com is a ridiculous comparison

They compared Fournette to goddamn Bo Jackson haha.

@cainedesoulis said:

So I'll consider your lack of an answer to my question to be zero 1 year starters from major DI programs have gone on to ace their rookie NFL gigs.

I don't ever remember Clemson to be putting WRs in the NFL nearly as the last 5 years or so to reflect how much their passing game has evolved. Your boy Boyd got cut. While we're at it, how many former NC QBS have gone on to become full time starters on NFL rosters for at least 1 year over the last 3 or 4 decades?

All that said, which one of us wants a QB in this draft at #1 or #12 overall? It's not me.