@calfoxwc said:

Agreed. So the question is, where to start? First, as cliche as it seems, drain the swamp is a first. Not just draining of people, but of laws, over taxation, legislation and anything else that hinders progress in the medical AND insurance markets. For example, why are prescriptions cost so much higher in the USA verses other countries (as an example)? It will require a complete re-write of the medical and insurance industries, and would require government oversight, but in regards to healthcare, and remembering that life, lifeberty and happiness are rights, I think the government might be able to get it right. This might mean that companies lose revenue, and bonuses... so what, fuck them. This is about the people and providing for them.

However, this does not mean that we just give. Our society needs to reinforce what it means to be a productive citizen. Schools today are so focused on seeing kids hit a certain number in test scores that we aren't focusing on what it means to be an adult. But we have also taken away schools rights to be authority figures during the day, this means kids have lost respect or have no respect for teachers. This is also enabled by piss poor parenting. However, if we can educate the people, to be productive and to want to work hard, and add value to society, then we can see more people put into the pot of healthcare.

The narrative that I hate is the "poor" this, the "poverty" that, and they need this and they need that. But are we asking the question as to "WHY" they are poor, and why they are poverty stricken? DId you drop out of school? Did you not finish college? Have you managed your credit poorly? Do you manage your finances poorly and make poor financial choices? Did you have kids that you really couldn't afford to have? These are tough questions to ask but are being completely ignored. Drive down the road, and look at those at the bus stop. What do you usually see with those waiting on the bus. A cell phone and smokes. A lot of lower income people I see typically with smokes, drugs, alcohol and then bitch about the rich. Give me a fuckin' break.

A pack of smokes today cost on avg. $5.51. If you started smoking in the last 5 years or so, you're paying $5.00 bucks for a pack on avg. If you are a pack a day smoker, over 40 years (if you live that long), you will have spend just over $72,000 (as long as prices stay the same) on smokes. That doesn't include the booze and the weed you blow money on too. And I bet, they probably have the best cable TV package and Netflix, and all the other amenities. Have fun riding the bus.

Let's not also mention that many poor people have made other poor life choices that has included breaking the law and have therefore relegated themselves to low skilled low paying jobs. I do feel that there needs to be some type of reform for those that really do want to turn around their lives and do so. But don't complain about low wages at McD's when you have drug charges, domestic abuse, fraud and other crimes on your record and you don't seem to get the picture when it comes to cleaning up your life. Fast food joints aren't there to fix your poor life choices.

@brownskidd said:

I agree. Though, I remember as a kid, and having my knee reconstructed the summer after the ninth grade...

a kid was on welfare, and was had major heart surgery the same day. One minute, I was in my room, and the next,

the nurses came in, and moved by bed and me out into the hall, and apologized.

The welfare kid - there wasn't a room yet, he was black, and his mom was raising hell over the fact that the other room

for him wasn't quite ready yet, threatening to sue for racial disc. etc etc.

So, they bailed and moved me out because I had surgery two days before and was doing great.

My physician gets there and was upset, bigly. He got close to me and said "why...are...you...in...the hall???"

I told him. and he really blew up. They took the confused welfare kid back out of my room, put me back in FAST,

and nurses were scrambling and got his room ready FAST, and got him in it, and my surgeon, head of the orthopedic

unit, was yelling...

even back then, those who were so poor they couldn't pay, still had to be treated like anybody else. That is classy,

and American heart. The trouble is, all those write offs for medical care, raised costs dramatically to try to regain

money to pay for the services that couldn't be paid for.

So, what to do? I understand a gov program. But obamaocare took the weird marxist step of screwing with what

was not broken - our entire American medicine structure. Everything. The dems gloated over getting so much control.

That backfired, but it's costly. Premiums and costs STILL went up. Doctors dropped out of coverages, millions lost

insurance.

Liberals ignored the CBO estimates of disaster... but now they hawk the CBO vs attempts to replace obamaocare.

The dems are so frantically against repealing/fixing/replacing obamaocare strictly because they lose their dem bragging

rights over it, and eventually, more of their base.

The other problem is, we are already so seriously/dangerously deep in debt - and there is so much a large subculture

of dependent/entitled people in our society, that any program to help the poor turns into an abused system of help -

a gravy train for those who couldn't care less about abusing a system for their own profit.

Poor kids everywhere, must have the best medical care. I never had a problem with them getting free care if they were poor.

The poor kid I mentioned...he had a serious shoulder surgery. The younger guy actually had a nurse wheel him into

my room - I was in there for a whole week (they don't do that anymore!)... he said he was sorry about that whole thing and

me losing my room. I said I felt bad his room wasn't ready. He told me he was playing in the street, ran in between parked

cars to get the basketball, and came out and got hit by a car that just pulled around a corner and was just slowing down

because kids were in the area. Gov hc, free hc at private facilities making costs skyrocket... I don't know what the answer is,

I just know kids like that young guy, all kids without insurance because they can't buy it.... deserve the best medical care.

It isn't their fault they need it, and don't have it.

The fraudulent abuse of any gov help program is major, I think. It's too bad.

@the-cysko-kid said:

Being conservative and for small government, I do feel that healthcare is now something that our government should be able to provide to its people, including education.

Our country is founded on life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, and I feel that healthcare and education aid in those three rights. We are a wealthy nation, and we could provide to our people better benefits. What has to stop is the idea that money is to be made on EVERYTHING.

@calfoxwc said:

Until our VA health care is fixed, I have a complete lack of respect for the idea of government health care.

Amen Cal!

and Aetna supplemental insurance. Out of pocket - about 169 bucks or something. Amazing. The best surgeon,

the staff at the hospital were wonderful ,you can't go anywhere in the world and have better health care.

Until our VA health care is fixed, I have a complete lack of respect for the idea of government health care.

@westside-steve said:

Another thing is that few years ago I read that there were more MRI machines in Greater Cleveland than there are in Canada.

So I don't know how feasible it would be to drive up to Toronto for a quick MRI.

WSS

Then I started seeing the people across the border who were diagnosed with a 3/6 month life expectancy, who couldn't get the life saving surgery needed fast enough. They were coming to the states for our world class health care, where they could have their procedures in less than a week's time.

If the government takes over our health care, it will go to hell in a hand basket.

@the-cysko-kid said:

To be fair you can sit for hours in the Cleveland clinic.

Sure you can. Just talking about my experience and everything has gone as close to Clockwork as possible.

And if you do wait it's for the finest facility in America unlike waiting for a nurse's aide in Hamilton Ontario.

Bottom line if you never get sick who gives a fuck how good the health care is?

WSS

@westside-steve said:

I guess I could live with that kind of two tier medical system. When I was in college and broke I remember sitting for hours at the free clinic. How long do you suppose it would be before the left, well the American left, makes a giant issue of the fact that the rich get better treatment then the poor?

WSS

To be fair you can sit for hours in the Cleveland clinic.

and the country will be crashed and broke. When the worst happens, they

will just bitch that they could have avoided it, but they weren't allowed to

overspend it faster....

Not Lithuania. Not Slovenia.

WSS

@gftchris said:

So, single payer must be sounding fairly appealing in comparison... $10k just for coverage, and then you have to pay $7k before they'll kick in? So, this year and last I'm guessing you came near that kind of scenario, paying $17k for your treatment? Don't feel obliged to answer, I'm just curious.

Hard to tell Chris I must admit there's an appeal there. I just don't know how much different our system would be if it were single-payer. I was in the Cleveland Clinic for 12 days. Cancer surgery and a heart catheter. The cancer center is one of the best of America and the cardiac center the best in the world. The place is state-of-the-art and the doctors the best anywhere. There's probably never a 30 minute. In which I didn't interact with a medical professional starting from nurses aides and going up the ladder to the heads of the Departments. Rather than to fuck with radiation my oncologist got me right into surgery with a woman who has the reputation as one of the best surgeons anywhere. My entire out-of-pocket for the year will probably be about $20,000. I could not ask for better care.

Is it possible somewhere else I might have had to wait a few weeks for the surgery and taking the chance that the tumor metastasized? Or that the collapsing stent wood close up completely and do serious damage to my heart if I've waited? I don't know but if either of those situations were possible do you two even a minor wait time I don't know if saving the money would be worth it to me. Maybe 20 more Grand to spend on my wake......

But it stands to reason if I got the exact same care and didn't have to pay for it oh, well sure that would be great.

But I can't imagine the Cleveland Clinic would be as good as it is if it were run by the government.

WSS

WSS

I work at a large company in NEO, and there are guys that work here with a family plan that is costing them $1100 a month.

No, I don't qualify for a subsidy.

@canton-dawg said:

Obamacare will pay for an open MRI, but the health insurance I pay $5500 annually for will not.

Sound fair?

5500 is pretty cheap. That's half what I pay just for premiums.

Did you qualify for a subsidy?

WSS

Sound fair?

So I don't know how feasible it would be to drive up to Toronto for a quick MRI.

WSS

My father-in-law lived in a retirement Village on the Texas border and many people crossed into Mexico to see a doctor or a dentist. Mexico pays for their citizens to go to medical school or dental school in the US but they have to work in Mexico for at least 2 years, maybe more. So they set up shop right across the border for older retired Americans to visit. Still we are talking about Minor medicine. Not cardiac surgery or knee replacement or hip replacements.

WSS

U.s. Hospital make a lot of money from Canadians coming over for Orthopedic Service.

WSS

@gftchris said:

Average premiums here are apparently a little over £1k. So not exactly the crippling amount people have been citing as criticisms of either the 'affordable healthcare act' or the 'american healthcare act'

As for your 'certain level of service' - does that mean you go to the doctor when you have a sniffle and get 'treated' right away? Because you can probably live without that. If you have things actually wrong, you're taken care of pretty well, despite what the horror stories would have you believe.

As for myself as you know I've had some recent serious problems and service was the best in the world and amazingly fast.

WSS

As for your 'certain level of service' - does that mean you go to the doctor when you have a sniffle and get 'treated' right away? Because you can probably live without that. If you have things actually wrong, you're taken care of pretty well, despite what the horror stories would have you believe.